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Vooch deserves a ton of credit

If someone feels led to make individual game threads, fantastic. In the meantime, I’m going to make and pin this thread for game interactions. Go Magic!

This would be solved quickly by getting a new young coach with a 21st century basketball mind. Cliffords methods are old and dated.

Wouldn’t mind Zach Lavine

Just showing Terrence Ross some appreciation. The guy is legitimately one of the best shooters in the league

CTMagicUK, as you know we're not on the same page, I'm not going to repeat my usual arguments again, but I have to say: it's a pleasure to discuss with you and read your points (will give a +1), even if I don't agree with a few of them. I obviously ALWAYS hope that all of you guys that are happy with the direction of the franchise are right, and that I'm completely wrong.

Is anybody else really sad about the possibility of trading AG or should I just sit alone in my feelings?

I think what more than anything that Heat article highlights to me is that a middling team is only ever a couple of smart moves from being a contender. Now sure we don't have Pat Riley pulling the strings nor do we have a championship winning future HOFer out there whispering into the ear of a star about to be a free agent. But our refusal to tank. Our trust in our roster. These are correct steps on the path to being a respected organisation. People hated giving Vuc that new contract and I get that. But how would it look to future free agents if we didn't resign our first All Star since Dwight off the back of our first playoff appearance since Dwight. Miami has a reputation from years and years of being a winning culture, we don't have that yet but we have to start somewhere. You can't admire that about Miami while simultaneously lament the fact that we've commited to trying to win. Sure it's only 2 8 seed playoff appearances but that's progress. Playoff appearances make us more attractive to free agents immediately. Think about Toronto. 5 or 6 years ago nobody thought they were a model franchise. Since then they've won a championship, had a COTY and we hired their second in command. There's every chance 3 years from now we're exactly where we currently are. But maybe Chuma Okeke is a future all star, or maybe we draft a future all star this year, or maybe Fultz is that guy and Isaac gets healthy. Just because things don't seem hopeful at the moment doesn't mean hope isn't right around the corner. Things change fast in the NBA. ...This post got a lot more 'motivational talk'-y than I intended...

Milwaukee is a garbage team with a physical freak of nature on the roster that gets them wins over bad and average teams. They're this years version of the old Lebron Cavaliers teams that always got wiped out when they eventually had to face a real contender. The Magic are a 33 win team missing 4 key players and they might get 2 wins off of them. If the Bucks make it past Miami, chances are Toronto or Boston will wipe the floor with them. If they somehow get hot and make it to the NBA Finals, whoever comes out of the west will slaughter them.

Here is the honest and real state of the Magic. Next year I don't see any teams above them falling off. Especially with Brooklyn getting KD and Kyrie back. There will be a significant divide between us and those teams talent wise. I believe the teams behind us will get better while we remain stagnant. We really have no way to improve because of our cap situation and lack of assets anyone wants. I am tired of striving for mediocrity, time to trade some veterans while keeping some for leadership. Keep the young core and go young and keep adding talent. Clifford has maxed this roster out and made them better then they should be because they don't beat themselves they just don't have top end talent. Time for the Vooch and Fournier disaster to finally end! There is no way if you are objective that you can say this has not been the worst stretch in Magic history. Time to not be timid and take some smart calculated risks!

I think I’d rather us tank. Trade Vucevic for filler and expirings, trade Ross for a pick. Spend the season letting Fultz, Bamba and Chuma get as many shots as they can and live through Fournier chucking up shots from all over the place in the last year of his deal cause I don’t see him opting out and I don’t see anybody trading for him. I don’t know what to do with AG though. I love him, I think he’s our current best player, and I think we’ll lose any deal we make that has him in it. It has an Oladipo type move written all over it. But I’d understand trading him and why he’d have zero interest in being part of yet another rebuild. Then after next season, when we’re definitely gonna be bad enough to pick high, maybe we get lotto luck and wind up with a top pick? Have JI coming back as well and should have decent cap space depending on if and how much we sign JI and Kelle to once their rookie deals are up. I dunno... I hated re-signing Vucevic at the time and I still hate it now... we finally had flexibility for the future and we double down on mediocrity.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. We need to hand the team over to Gordon and Fultz. What this team has done with Gordon this year really reminds me of what they did with Oladipo. Dipo looked inefficient in Orlando for two reasons: 1) he wasn't quite ready, 2) the offense was never really designed to his strengths. The second thing there is the problem. Dipo had the makings of a really good mid-range player who could turn that into offense in other areas, but we rarely let him operate from mid-range, because analytics said it's bad offense. Our offense back then was designed for drive-and-kicks, Vuc & THarris down low, and open 3's. Only Vuc had a green light from mid-range most of the time. That's not a bad offensive focus, except that we ignored our 2nd pick in the draft's strengths to fit a system. Gordon has shown he can take advantage of mismatches, he's great on cuts to the rim, and he's a solid passer. Yet how often do we see the design to get him mismatches. We should be letting him run pick and rolls up top to get him on a smaller guy way more often. Fultz and Gordon 2-man-game should be way more of a focus, as Fultz is good at creating chaos off of a pick which would create roll lanes for Gordon. Instead, we have Gordon coming off of screens for 3's like he's TRoss or just being the bailout guy when the offense can't get anything else. The things Gordon does well are highly efficient basketball, even if that's not often enough what he's asked to do. The things Vuc and Fournier and TRoss do well are not efficient basketball. Gordon is the only guy on the team who plays with intensity every night (and MCW, but that's another story). Gordon is the only real 2-way player on the team right now. Yet our offense is still designed around guard/center ball screens to get open 3's and hoping Vuc can abuse his man one-on-one. So Gordon is the third or fourth option at any given time. He's going to leave, and someone (probably Golden State) is going to love him like we wouldn't.

Hi Guys! First time in the forum! Sadly, I also believe that the time of the tanking has arrived. I don't know if some players would happily agree to it, and I don't know either if we have the right coaching staff for the development process, but every week feels like hell trying to compete with all the injuries. I'm not sure about trading Vuc, at least until the end of the season. I wouldn't rush that decision. But I do think that Fournier should be traded while he still has some market value... Greetings from Argentina!

I rather just tank and see what we can get in trades, this season is weird as it is already.

I want to tip my hat to Vuc tonight for actually playing defense. He finished with 3 blocks and I saw him leave the ground a handful of times which is very uncommon. Great overall team win!

So here is my take on the pre-season and how it impacts going forward. I think Cole Anthony had a really good pre-season considering 1) he hasn't played since March, and 2) none of the rookies had much of a camp. I think he immediately slides into the backup PG role, and helps bring the energy that they have sometimes lacked. His offensive ability and mindset should take some of the pressure off of TRoss, hopefully allowing him to become more efficient and effective - possibly also allowing TRoss to expend a little more effort on the defensive end as well. Hopefully, the return of Ennis will move Bacon back to the second unit and that should also contribute to the offensive punch of that second unit. I expect Bacon to be better against backups than he was starting. I do still have some hope for Bamba, and I think playing with Anthony and a more up-tempo second unit will either make or break him. Hopefully it will force him to get in the shape necessary to keep up, and play with the energy he frequently lacks. Anthony is the type of push-the-pace guard that will get Bamba easy transition buckets and good position/mis-matches if he steps up. I truly hope he does, otherwise I think he will be off this team next year. I find it interesting that what should be a position of strength for us (PF) is currently probably our weakest spot due to injuries. With Isaac out for the year, Aminu still in recovery mode (and not very good last year before the injury), Clark being really inconsistent as a bench player, and Okeke being a rookie/coming off an injury/not having played in a year and a half, it is the position of concern in the short-term. I did see some positives from Okeke, and I think he will be given time to recover/grow into the backup PF role, and maybe even some backup SF. I think we will see the same conservative, low-pressure approach for him that we saw them take with Fultz. I wouldn't even be surprised to see him spend a little time with Lakeland to get him more court time with less pressure. I know we haven't really seen it yet, but if Birch did add a three-point shot he may grab some of the backup PF minutes. I don't like the Vuc/Birch front court, but Clifford seems to. So here is where I see our rotation going once we get some guys healthy: Fultz/Anthony/MCW Fournier/MCW/Bacon Ennis/TRoss/Okeke Gordon/Okeke/Aminu/Clark Vucevic/Bamba/Birch I think we see a lot of 3-guard lineups for the second unit with Anthony/MCW/Bacon/TRoss all getting regular minutes. I think Clark may start out getting most of the PF backup minutes to start the season, but dropping to the end of the bench as Okeke gets into shape/the swing of the season and whenever Aminu comes back. I don't expect to see Isaac this season at all. Once we get to the trade deadline, I think we may see some guys gone for whatever we can get. Fournier might be of interest for a contending team as a 3rd/4th option or even as a 6th man/scorer from the bench. With his expiring contract I wouldn't expect us to get much back, but who knows. A contending team might pay more, but I wouldn't expect much more than a mid-first, or a young guy and a late-first to be offered. I think Aminu or Clark will probably be headed out at the deadline as well. I think that will greatly depend on Okeke's development and AG's health whether either or both remains with the team. Frankly, I don't think Ennis and Clark both would have been re-signed if Aminu and/or Okeke had been closer to playing, and if Isaac and AG hadn't gone down. I think Clark got a contract strictly based on his play in the bubble, and the number of front-court injuries. I think we might have brought Ennis back, but I think Clark would have been gone - he is a cheap insurance/fill in while guys are recovering. This front-office does seem to be giving us a clear indication that they are going to try to improve via internal growth, and/or "reclamation" projects. We have a lot of guys on our team who it can be argued have "under-performed" in their careers/in the draft so far due to injury. Both Okeke and Anthony were projected to be top-10 (top-5?), but fell in the draft. Fultz, Isaac, and Bamba have all had sub-par careers to date. All five of these have had injury issues. Bacon had a pretty good first year in Charlotte, but fell off in the second year; and MCW was a former rookie of the year who was completely out of the league at one point. Ennis only cost us a second-round pick, and Clark was a waiver-wire pick up. Again, four more guys other teams had given up on. That is nine guys out of the fifteen on the regular roster. That is a lot of "reclamation" projects on one team, and yet we have still managed to make the playoffs the last two years with this strategy. I'm not sure whether to be impressed or appalled at the fact 60% of our current team consists of this category of player. Having guys who have something to prove/a chip on their shoulders seems to be a point of emphasis for them. We'll see how it works out. It could be a very interesting season.

Two reflections: 1. Raise your hand if you’re just glad our future doesn’t hinge on Elfrid Payton. [Soul raises hand]. Thank goodness that experiment is long gone. 2. Count me as one who still believes our future centers around developing talent vs. trading for it. We need one or more of our young guys to take that leap, be it Fultz, Anthony or Okeke. Will one of them (or someone else) become the next Mitchell or Murray?

Karim Mane's comp on nbadraft.net is Dwayne Bacon

Just listened to the Weltman exit interview. Definitely sounds like he's high on Augustin. Can see him trying to bring him back if the money is right for us. (I actually have a feeling a contender will out bid us on DJ. If I was the Lakers for example id definitely be thinking about a PG who can catch and shoot for LeBron and run PnR with AD when LeBron is off the floor.) He was also very bullish when asked about the league moving away from traditional centers. He said both our centers can stretch the floor and Vuc in particular is a highly skilled all star not some lumbering guy who only bangs down low and he said "I can tell you we've fielded a lot of calls from those teams (teams that are going small at the 5) about our two guys" Sounded very hopeful about both Fultz and Okeke. Confirmed Isaac was out all of next season. Fournier didn't get a single mention in the whole 20+ mins. Was disappointed none of the reporters asked about the situation with him.

If you think New Orleans are trading Brandon Ingram for Vuc I've got a bridge to sell you. I also doubt Golden State would value Vuc over Wiggins since they have zero wings and seem to prefer rim running, rim protector bigs, but in a world where they do and they do want to trade for him and we have to take on Wiggins' dreadful contract I'd want: Eric Paschall, #2, 2021 MIN pick, their own unprotected 2022 pick and a couple of second rounders. Because honestly if we trade Vuc we're probably a bottom 5 team. Might as well lean into it with a bunch of assets. Also Fred VanVleet is about to get dramatically over paid and I want no part of it. His value as a starting PG when he won't be playing next to another elite full time PG in Kyle Lowry is virtually none to me. He's not a good pick and roll player at 0.84 PPP that's in the 50th percentile among all players (of eligible Magic players only MCW and AG are worse pick and roll ball handlers, DJ Augustin, Terrence Ross, Wes Iwundu and Evan Fournier all have better PPP as a pick and roll ball handler and Fultz is comparable at 0.85). Of his almost 7 3PA a game 6 of them are classified as Open or Wide Open, the benefits of playing with another all star guard, an all star forward and one of the best passing big men in the game in Gasol. He also only shoots 31% on pull-ups. DJ Augustin is hitting 38% on pull-ups this season. And he shoots 55% at the rim, DJ Augustin shoots 57% at the rim. Someone is going to pay Fred VanVleet 20 million a season. I suspect that is going to be a mistake. Apart from being an obvious defensive upgrade his numbers are comparable to DJ Augustin who'll probably make a quarter of what VanVleet makes next season. Caris Levert, I can see the appeal because of his self creation but he's older and less experienced than AG (who we'd probably have to give up to get him) and averages 50 games a season. He also needs the ball in his hands to be effective which could be a problem depending on if you believe in Fultz or not. Obviously if we could somehow get him with Fournier I'd do it but otherwise I think I pass. Hield is overrated. There's a reason he got benched in Sacramento. He's also really old for his experience level. He'll be 28 years old in the first year of his 4 year $94 million contract next season. I wouldn't like to give up a lot of assets for him. Trading Vuc for him almost certainly means we're losing a lot of games next season. Which if you want to do, that's fine, but if we're tanking I'd rather have picks and young players. CJ McCollum I can't see getting traded. People float his name every off-season and nothing ever happens. If they did trade him I'd imagine they'd want another real star back. Can't imagine Brooklyn entertaining a sign and trade for Joe Harris since he's exactly the type of player they'll need next season to play with Kyrie and KD. And how much would you be willing to pay and give up for just a pure shooter who's value is limited basically everywhere else? Fournier I guess? Would Brooklyn do that considering Fournier is an expiring? I did not intend for this post to be as overwhelming negative as what it's come out as but I think we need to be realistic about our options here. It's alright wanting a big shake up, but a shake up for the sake of a shake up isn't a smart or sound decision. Also I'm just not a huge fan of discussing guys like Ingram and Jaylen Brown who we've got probably zero chance of acquiring since discussing it perpetuates the idea it's possible which leads to some fans taking exhausting stances like "not trading for Ingram when we had the chance was unforgivable".

Oh the stress of the ping pong ball game. This is why I absolutely hate 'tanking'. We tried to lose games, as an organization. But we didn't lose enough - by one game the year Luka came up - and we didn't move up in the draft during the entire process. Despite that, we drafted a star in Oladipo, and we traded him before he blossomed. We traded for a future All-Star in Tobias, and we gave him up for nothing. And neither of those things seemed completely crazy at the time, because those guys weren't supposed to be stars. You can have all the lottery luck, get the star player, but if you don't have a good culture, it doesn't matter. I question just how good Luka would be in Orlando. Surely he'd be good, but I doubt he'd be this good. The problem in Orlando has not been the players, it has been the culture of the team, created by coveting the likes of Luka in the draft, rather than trying to find Giannis or Mitchell while competing the best we can. The culture of this team IS changing, though, that's clear. I think we need a better coach, honestly, for the final change. Cliff has done a good job, but he's been basically what we expected Skiles to be years ago - the transition coach who shook off the expectation of losing. Maybe he can do better than I expect, but we'll see. I still keep hoping OKC will get stupid and fire Billy Donovan. My point is that I get the idea of this team being stagnant, going nowhere. But I don't think that means we should return to the 'tanking' process. The Heat were stagnant, going nowhere. Now I think Milwaukee better win a championship or Miami's going to steal Giannis. OKC was supposed to rebuild after they realized they couldn't compete in the West with Russ and Paul George. Indiana is competitive with a hurt star and a bunch of guys no one wanted - a second-round pick, a guy Phoenix gave them for cash, a guy who was traded twice in his first two years as a throw-in, and a guy who couldn't run right. Minnesota had two first picks in the draft - technically three if you count Bennett. Now they have a dominant first pick Center and an All-Star Guard. And they haven't made the playoffs yet. Phoenix might finally have something, but we'll see; they still ain't made the playoffs yet, and Golden State is coming back into the picture out West, as is Memphis. And the poster-boys for the "Process" going right, the 76ers... we lasted longer in the playoffs than they did. See, I don't want to imagine having Luka. I'd rather imagine having the organizational mentality of the Nuggets or the Bucks or the Rockets or the Pacers or the Heat. Or, hell, the Raptors. And I actually think we're getting back there. This is already a rebuild, guys. Except we aren't rebuilding the team, we're rebuilding the culture. And if you ask me, we're doing it right. Finally. Go Magic! And yeah, Luka's a beast...

I just hope that somehow Vuc and Fournier would be gone...absolutely can’t stand them on our team anymore...

It's like the old saying when a pair of guys is being chased by the lion or bear. I just have to be faster then the next guy, not the lion.I'm telling you right now the Magic are the "next guy". We are the Knicks and Kings right now, and we are the Twolves and Suns since the Nash era. The organization has 4 really bad reputations right now. Dysfunction, no real leadership, no ability to develop players and and an elephant in the room nobody talks about. The elephant in the room? Which Star player has left the Magic in the last 30 years without some kind of problem with the team? Think about it,Shaq,Penny,Hill,Mcgrady,Dwight,Hedo,Lewis,Nelson,Dipo and i'm using the phrase star player recklessly here. What i really mean is nobody has left this team either as the hero or as former beloved player going on his own terms. Really truly think about that. We are dangerously close to the team that pisses everyone off and goes 15 years without a good team.

I’m a fan and he didn’t have to sell me on not signing vooch. He was back asswards thinking. Sometimes you have to stick your neck out to reach success. So far I’ve seen the mngt has not. Safe route gets us exactly where we are at.

We’ve had the same offensive problems for years, how it’s not fixed yet is beyond me