Discussion of J.J.'s future...NOT THE PAST

[Murphy13 185]

quote:

Originally posted by Jackie Treehorn:

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

 

what i said holds true for every position, not just pg's.

 

the part of his opinion that i had a problem with was that he said its too late to reinvent himself...its never too late. every great player with the exception of the best ever had to transform their game to fit the grind of the nba. there are too many to mention. the point is, is that if redick can find a way to contribute in limited minutes regardless of 'position', he will be alright and find a very comfortable spot in this league...my personal suggestion to redick is to work on getting his assists up, if possible. however, one of the most lacking factions of the nba is the mastery of the mid range jumpshot. imo, there is no one in this league that has a better chance to be the best at converting this elusive opportunity than redick. regardless of position, all he needs to do is gain the valuable experience needed in order to play good team ball...and he could be a vital cog in the machine that is a championship team. its all about scoring more points than the other guy. and redick even now in a not so lofty state, could very well be our best point producer per minute. yeah, his defense isnt great, at all, but neither is the majority of the league. in fact, many successful players in this league could potentially have worse D than redick. when was the last time you saw a good defensive move from steve nash? not saying that redick is as good as nash(obviously not) but what does nash have that redick doesnt have, skills wise? IF redick seizes the opportunity to improve his all around game he will be just fine. and thats why he hasnt been traded yet. he is an asset as much as a young brent barry in this league....certainly not someone that you want starting for you, but, if you really need a bucket, you could do a whole lot worse than watching them take a stab at it...

 

Nice bit of backtracking there. NotByChoice's post was all about how it was too late for Redick to all of the sudden learn how to be a point guard. You responded by saying he was wrong. In fact, you said "your opinion you mentioned is your opinion, but it couldnt be further from the truth."

 

That, to me, implies that in your opinion, not only is it not too late for Redick to learn to be a point guard, it's also common for players that have never played point guard before to learn how to do so after getting to the NBA. That was the topic being commented on, and that was what you said "couldn't be further from the truth."

 

So please, give me examples. If it's that common, name a few guys who came into the league never having played point guard before who learned to be serviceable point guards after coming to the NBA. I'm not even asking for great players, just serviceable ones.

 

where did i mention anything specific about point guards? i said that it wasnt too late to learn certain(previously mentioned) skills, REGARDLESS OF POSITION. is it that difficult to understand? who says a player has to play pg if he improves upon his assists?

 

edit: i guess you missed the part where i said 'it has nothing to do with jj, but with your analysis on how people learn to play.'

 

what exactly is your purpose in these comments you made? it appears as if you are just trying to start conflict.

[Murphy13 185]

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Charisma:

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

quote:

Originally posted by NotByChoice:

With all due respect I think asking JJ to play point guard is outrageous. What is the one thing just about everyone marvels at in respect to JJ outside of his shooting ability? It's the way he plays off the ball running off screens trying to get open and its been that way since his freshmen year at duke and probably even his early days of high school.

 

JJ was groomed to be a shooter/scorer playing off the ball. It's too late in his career to try and reinvent himself as a passer/playmaker; he definitely doesn't have the ball handling skills. JJ is a tweener of epic proportions doesn't have the physical attributes to play the shooting guard and doesn't have the ability to play point guard. I personally think he was done a disservice not learning how to play point guard as a teen but its to late now in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately for JJ and Magic fans he's destined to sit on the bench again this year and will probably remain there until his contract is up and then either go to another NBA team or play in Europe in what will probably be the most mind boggling lottery pick in Orlando Magic history

 

with all due respect, jj is 22. i learned more about how to play bball past the age of 22 than i did before. youth is spent on fundamentals, once you get older, you learn the game...learn angles, anticipation, and you become more aware of your surroundings. your opinion you mentioned is your opinion, but it couldnt be further from the truth. it has nothing to do with jj, but with your analysis on how people learn to play. its just wrong.

 

also, people who think jj can only score off the ball are mistaken. its nearly impossible to ONLY score off the ball when you are the 'man' on your team...and jj was always the man on his team until he came to the magic. besides, i saw glimpses of jj at the end of the season doing a fantastic job of penetrating the key towards the ft line and opening up the iron ring for dwight/ or having wide open mid range jumpers. jj 'commands' respect for his jumper, because of that, he will manage to get open lanes to the basket on occasion-it comes with time(it also provides ample opportunities for assits)...i speak from experience on that one.

With all due respect, JJ turned 24 this past June. Yes, he's 1 and 1/2 years older than Dwight.

 

If after 4 years under Coach K, and 3 years practicing and playing against NBA players, he is still needing to "learn more about how to play bball", then I would ask that anyone and everyone that uses the argument that JJ has "a great basketball IQ" please discontinue with that argument. You can't have it both ways.

 

my bad, i thought he was going on 23...oh well. my opinion still doesnt change regarding a players' ability to improve past their low-mid 20's. also, you are saying it isnt possible for a player with relatively 'good bball iq' to 'learn more about the game' and become better??? are you serious?

[Luke_FfS 251]

quote:

Originally posted by JonBoy418:

I think there are a couple of points that need to kept in the back of our minds when considering JJ.

 

First, he was drafted by the Magic for the sole purpose of shoring up our lack of three point shot. When we drafted JJ, we were last in the league in three point shots and thought it was a necassity to have a three point specialist spread the floor for Dwight. In my opinion, it was a stretch for JJ at 11 because of his one dimensional style of play.

 

Since that draft, we've aquired Rashard Lewis, thus antiquating the need for JJ's role.

 

Next, playing time is not the decision of Otis. Otis hired a coach to figure out rotation and playing time. It drives me nuts when people say Otis is stupid for not playing JJ. That's SVG call.

 

And this is a call that I need to trust SVG on. He's the talent evaluator, he the practice facilitator. He sees things in practice and on the bench that we get no glimpse at.

 

If the goal is to put out the best team on the floor, then that's the goal. JJ shouldn't be given playing time just to boost trade value. If he gets beaten out by Pietrus and Lee, then that's your depth chart and you stick to it.

 

If JJ is not getting playing time because of ego / coaching conflict / bad attitude, then that is the fault of JJ and no one else. He needs to be accountable for his action and if that's the reason, I suggest he changes to become a company man quickly before he is labelled a bust and no team signs him.

 

Ultimately, JJ does not and probably won't have any trade value unless he's a throw in for salary cap purposes. If his team option is not picked up and JJ goes quietly away, then I'm fine with that. It's not the first time it's happened to an NBA team with a lottery pick and there's no use in trying to fit a square peg through a round hole.

 

Right on the target!

 

[Mr Charisma 0]

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Charisma:

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

quote:

Originally posted by NotByChoice:

With all due respect I think asking JJ to play point guard is outrageous. What is the one thing just about everyone marvels at in respect to JJ outside of his shooting ability? It's the way he plays off the ball running off screens trying to get open and its been that way since his freshmen year at duke and probably even his early days of high school.

 

JJ was groomed to be a shooter/scorer playing off the ball. It's too late in his career to try and reinvent himself as a passer/playmaker; he definitely doesn't have the ball handling skills. JJ is a tweener of epic proportions doesn't have the physical attributes to play the shooting guard and doesn't have the ability to play point guard. I personally think he was done a disservice not learning how to play point guard as a teen but its to late now in my opinion.

 

Unfortunately for JJ and Magic fans he's destined to sit on the bench again this year and will probably remain there until his contract is up and then either go to another NBA team or play in Europe in what will probably be the most mind boggling lottery pick in Orlando Magic history

 

with all due respect, jj is 22. i learned more about how to play bball past the age of 22 than i did before. youth is spent on fundamentals, once you get older, you learn the game...learn angles, anticipation, and you become more aware of your surroundings. your opinion you mentioned is your opinion, but it couldnt be further from the truth. it has nothing to do with jj, but with your analysis on how people learn to play. its just wrong.

 

also, people who think jj can only score off the ball are mistaken. its nearly impossible to ONLY score off the ball when you are the 'man' on your team...and jj was always the man on his team until he came to the magic. besides, i saw glimpses of jj at the end of the season doing a fantastic job of penetrating the key towards the ft line and opening up the iron ring for dwight/ or having wide open mid range jumpers. jj 'commands' respect for his jumper, because of that, he will manage to get open lanes to the basket on occasion-it comes with time(it also provides ample opportunities for assits)...i speak from experience on that one.

With all due respect, JJ turned 24 this past June. Yes, he's 1 and 1/2 years older than Dwight.

 

If after 4 years under Coach K, and 3 years practicing and playing against NBA players, he is still needing to "learn more about how to play bball", then I would ask that anyone and everyone that uses the argument that JJ has "a great basketball IQ" please discontinue with that argument. You can't have it both ways.

 

my bad, i thought he was going on 23...oh well. my opinion still doesnt change regarding a players' ability to improve past their low-mid 20's. also, you are saying it isnt possible for a player with relatively 'good bball iq' to 'learn more about the game' and become better??? are you serious?

In the literal sense of the word IQ, I would agree with your last point/question.

 

But when someone says that someone has a "high basketball IQ", they usually are inferring that the person already knows and understands more about the game than most other players.

 

You are not the one that said he had a "high basketball IQ", so I really wasn't directing that specifically toward you. It's just an argument I've heard from a lot of other JJ fans (and it may be true, in the literal sense of IQ).

[EnFuego 1]

quote:

Originally posted by JonBoy418:

I think there are a couple of points that need to kept in the back of our minds when considering JJ.

 

First, he was drafted by the Magic for the sole purpose of shoring up our lack of three point shot. When we drafted JJ, we were last in the league in three point shots and thought it was a necassity to have a three point specialist spread the floor for Dwight. In my opinion, it was a stretch for JJ at 11 because of his one dimensional style of play.

 

Since that draft, we've aquired Rashard Lewis, thus antiquating the need for JJ's role.

 

Next, playing time is not the decision of Otis. Otis hired a coach to figure out rotation and playing time. It drives me nuts when people say Otis is stupid for not playing JJ. That's SVG call.

 

And this is a call that I need to trust SVG on. He's the talent evaluator, he the practice facilitator. He sees things in practice and on the bench that we get no glimpse at.

 

If the goal is to put out the best team on the floor, then that's the goal. JJ shouldn't be given playing time just to boost trade value. If he gets beaten out by Pietrus and Lee, then that's your depth chart and you stick to it.

 

If JJ is not getting playing time because of ego / coaching conflict / bad attitude, then that is the fault of JJ and no one else. He needs to be accountable for his action and if that's the reason, I suggest he changes to become a company man quickly before he is labelled a bust and no team signs him.

 

Ultimately, JJ does not and probably won't have any trade value unless he's a throw in for salary cap purposes. If his team option is not picked up and JJ goes quietly away, then I'm fine with that. It's not the first time it's happened to an NBA team with a lottery pick and there's no use in trying to fit a square peg through a round hole.

 

Absolutely dead on post. So good a post, I'm going to steal that last thought for my next post.

[TheREALBrooksThompson 157]

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

 

where did i mention anything specific about point guards? i said that it wasnt too late to learn certain(previously mentioned) skills, REGARDLESS OF POSITION. is it that difficult to understand? who says a player has to play pg if he improves upon his assists?

 

The guy you responded to was saying he thought it was too late for JJ to become a point guard. You said he was wrong. Seems pretty straightforward to me. If you weren't talking about JJ becoming a point guard, then you aren't really disagreeing with him, are you? You're talking about something completely different.

 

 

edit: i guess you missed the part where i said 'it has nothing to do with jj, but with your analysis on how people learn to play.'

 

Again, even if you weren't talking specifically about JJ, the post you responded to said it was too late for player A to learn to play point guard. Your response said that was wrong. This is really just basic reading comprehension here.

 

what exactly is your purpose in these comments you made? it appears as if you are just trying to start conflict.

 

My purpose is that this is a discussion board. I am discussing. Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean they're trying to start a conflict. You're just getting defensive because you were talking out of your *** and got called on it. Then you tried to go back on what you originally said and got called on that too.

 

It's ok. It happens to everyone.

[EnFuego 1]

quote:

Originally posted by JonBoy418:

It's not the first time it's happened to an NBA team with a lottery pick and there's no use in trying to fit a square peg through a round hole.

 

There are only two reasons why JJ gets talked to death on these pages,

 

1. We're uber Magic fans by definition and we over play every Magic move.

 

2. JJ is a well known collegiate player with a large following.

 

Because outside of those two elements, there's really not much of a story concerning an 11th pick that doesn't get enough playing time with the team that drafted him.

 

Like JonBoy418 stated, when we drafted him, we had a need for what he brought. Here's Chad Ford's take right after the draft.

 

"The Magic have been in love with Redick all year. They decided to ignore the back problems and DWI and take the guy who can shoot the lights out. I think the Magic should have taken Ronnie Brewer here. He's more versatile and a better defender and a better fit next to Jameer Nelson. But with Dwight Howard and Darko Milicic in the paint, Redick should get lots of open looks."

 

Taking the obvious Ronnie Brewer comment aside (in retrospect, the better choice), Redick was drafted to fill a need, a need that later became irrelevant, 3 point shooting.

 

How unique was it for us to have the 11th pick in the draft and not play him?

 

Let's review,

 

9th pick - Patrick O'Brien - Golden State - played in 40 games for a total of 224 minutes, signed with Boston this summer.

10th Pick - Mouhamed Sene - Seattle - played 41 games for a total of 234 minutes.

11th pick - JJ Reddick - Orlando - 76 games played for a total of 896 minutes.

 

Bet you O'Brien and Hene don't get quite as much ink as JJ does.

[~O~ 565]

The thought of JJ not being able to improve in certain skills gives me the thought that Dwight cannot do so either. Its true that its never to late to improve on something in your career.

 

I remember Jameer being a decent shooter his rookie year then becoming a sniper the second. Effort into improvement shows year after year.

 

As far as this conversation goes, who's to say that JJ hasn't improved on the skills that he previously and may currently lack? I know that none of you all have seen all his recent improvements. So therefore saying that he is a decent ball handler, passer, defender, and will not receive the backup shooting guard position is just false opinions as far as I'm concerned.

 

Lets just wait for the new season to come and see all "OPINIONS" to come "FACTS".

[Rob 0]

Cause both player were projects. JJ was supposed to be more of a finished product. You knew already what you were getting in JJ unlike the others.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by O-dub:

The thought of JJ not being able to improve in certain skills gives me the thought that Dwight cannot do so either. Its true that its never to late to improve on something in your career.

 

I remember Jameer being a decent shooter his rookie year then becoming a sniper the second. Effort into improvement shows year after year.

 

As far as this conversation goes, who's to say that JJ hasn't improved on the skills that he previously and may currently lack? I know that none of you all have seen all his recent improvements. So therefore saying that he is a decent ball handler, passer, defender, and will not receive the backup shooting guard position is just false opinions as far as I'm concerned.

 

Lets just wait for the new season to come and see all "OPINIONS" to come "FACTS".

 

I'm pretty confident in my assessment that JJ isn't as good at any of the previously mentioned things as Hornacek was, and Hornacek bombed a sa point guard. In fact, I can only name one player who was successful, even for a little while, as a point guard in the NBA after having not played there previously. So there is a precedent for JJ to pull it off.

 

He just has to become Michael Jordan. I'd say it's unlikely.

 

By the way, if you ever want to see some jaw dropping stats, look at what MJ did in the last 11 games of the 87-88 season playing point guard. Christ.

[jmmagicfan 302]

It is interesting to me that nobody has picked up on, or responded to the related idea of putting JJ and CLee in the backcourt together. Neither is a true PG, granted, but if you have the two of them out there with Turk at the SF, do they need to be? Do they each have enough ball-handling, court vision, aggressiveness, and defense as a combined backcourt unit to make the team run without a true point? Obviously not something you would try against someone's starting unit, but against another team's backups, maybe.

[Osprey 199]

quote:

Originally posted by jmmagicfan:

It is interesting to me that nobody has picked up on, or responded to the related idea of putting JJ and CLee in the backcourt together. Neither is a true PG, granted, but if you have the two of them out there with Turk at the SF, do they need to be? Do they each have enough ball-handling, court vision, aggressiveness, and defense as a combined backcourt unit to make the team run without a true point? Obviously not something you would try against someone's starting unit, but against another team's backups, maybe.

 

You can sign me up. I like this idea a lot.

 

+1 to you, sir.