CTMagicUK 1,491 Report post Posted January 7 Just now, Luke_FfS said: If the FO acts like in the past, I'm pretty sure we aren't going to make a big move, or a trade at all. With all the improvement we're having this season, that aspect still worry me, together ,ayne with the lack of quality of the staff (shooting coach? offensive top assistant?) even if I logically don't have any info about that, only sensations. As I repeated multiple times, I hate to have to overpay for FA, even if we don't lose assets that way, I absolutely prefer a trade in which we gave up a little depth or picks. Making a decision about the future of the PG position should be on top of the list of the FO, IMO I also fully understand the point about Murray, but generally speaking, are we sure that we're going to win and being contenders with only "good guys"? I mean, at some point and in certain situations "bad guys" are a need to, together with veteran leaders, as long they're not lockeroom cancer obviously. I don't really understand the trade Vs FA argument as it pertains to overpaying. An overpay for a free agent would be what? A couple more million a season than what other teams offer at most? (Some free agents may very well accept the same contract as other teams offer if they believe in the role etc). How does it affect the Magic if they give that extra couple mil to a free agent versus re-signing a 2 way guy to a guaranteed contract or something? There's a salary floor we have to reach anyway and even if we go way over the floor and over the cap into the tax it's not affecting us as fans until we cross the aprons etc and lose assets which we'd be doing in any trade anyway. So long as it doesn't negatively affect our ability to resign our main guys and build a contending roster - something I'd assume the front office would consider deeply - I don't see how it's a problem what contracts we give out. For example, did we overpay Joe Ingles? Maybe. Will it negatively affect us in any meaningful way long term? No. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTMagicUK 1,491 Report post Posted January 7 12 minutes ago, MagicMan1979 said: I no your not saying these guys necessarily but I feel we would have to overpay all of them. Why? Maybe guys will see we're an up and coming team and come here. Maybe there'll be a guy who has connections to the team or the coaches and come here without over paying. Maybe people will want to be a part of this project? And what's an overpay? If we give Doug McDermott (not really a FA I'd be super excited about just an example) 2 years 15m a season, I'd consider that an overpay definitely, but how would that negatively affect our team in any meaningful way long term? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
orlandoholic 137 Report post Posted January 7 1 hour ago, CTMagicUK said: I don't really understand the trade Vs FA argument as it pertains to overpaying. An overpay for a free agent would be what? A couple more million a season than what other teams offer at most? (Some free agents may very well accept the same contract as other teams offer if they believe in the role etc). How does it affect the Magic if they give that extra couple mil to a free agent versus re-signing a 2 way guy to a guaranteed contract or something? There's a salary floor we have to reach anyway and even if we go way over the floor and over the cap into the tax it's not affecting us as fans until we cross the aprons etc and lose assets which we'd be doing in any trade anyway. So long as it doesn't negatively affect our ability to resign our main guys and build a contending roster - something I'd assume the front office would consider deeply - I don't see how it's a problem what contracts we give out. For example, did we overpay Joe Ingles? Maybe. Will it negatively affect us in any meaningful way long term? No. The Magic know what overpaying in FA means. It means that you have to pay major big bucks, or else nobody is gonna pickup the phone. Example Biyombo, J. Green, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTMagicUK 1,491 Report post Posted January 7 13 minutes ago, orlandoholic said: The Magic know what overpaying in FA means. It means that you have to pay major big bucks, or else nobody is gonna pickup the phone. Example Biyombo, J. Green, Jeff Green was a one year contract. Hardly impacted anything. I agree with Biyombo but that was that crazy off-season where everyone got overpaid and more importantly Weltman is twice as competent as Hennigan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMan1979 108 Report post Posted January 7 2 hours ago, CTMagicUK said: Jeff Green was a one year contract. Hardly impacted anything. I agree with Biyombo but that was that crazy off-season where everyone got overpaid and more importantly Weltman is twice as competent as Hennigan. I think it’s hard to get people to Orlando and there aren’t a lot of Free Agents. Maybe you’re right but we also have to let a lot of guys walk that need to be replaced. Free agency isn’t the way to go in my opinion for any real impact guys. I get your points but I just think recent history shows how hard free agency can be. Would you want to do what Houston did last summer? It is working for them. I was a hard no on Vanfleet for example. But it was short term money. In the distant past I was more of a free agency guy but I am now more of a trade and extend or resign players guy for team building. Especially since I’d rather have veterans than draft more young players and have to pay them. Tell me who Orlando could realistically get in free agency? That might help our discussion. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTMagicUK 1,491 Report post Posted January 8 9 hours ago, MagicMan1979 said: I think it’s hard to get people to Orlando and there aren’t a lot of Free Agents. Maybe you’re right but we also have to let a lot of guys walk that need to be replaced. Free agency isn’t the way to go in my opinion for any real impact guys. I get your points but I just think recent history shows how hard free agency can be. Would you want to do what Houston did last summer? It is working for them. I was a hard no on Vanfleet for example. But it was short term money. In the distant past I was more of a free agency guy but I am now more of a trade and extend or resign players guy for team building. Especially since I’d rather have veterans than draft more young players and have to pay them. Tell me who Orlando could realistically get in free agency? That might help our discussion. Every time this team has been good and/or had buzz they've signed impactful free agents. Horace Grant, T-Mac, Grant Hill (didn't work out but was a big signing at the time), Hedo Turkoglu, Rashard Lewis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicMan1979 108 Report post Posted January 8 2 hours ago, CTMagicUK said: Every time this team has been good and/or had buzz they've signed impactful free agents. Horace Grant, T-Mac, Grant Hill (didn't work out but was a big signing at the time), Hedo Turkoglu, Rashard Lewis. That was a longtime ago. It’s hard for a small market to team to sign a big time free agent like T-Mac and Hill. Maybe a huge Rasheed Lewis overpay is still possible. He fit for sure and I loved Lewis but that was an overpay at the time even. The league has changed a lot. Free agency is for the bench players for Orlando which is important of course. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CTMagicUK 1,491 Report post Posted January 8 1 hour ago, MagicMan1979 said: That was a longtime ago. It’s hard for a small market to team to sign a big time free agent like T-Mac and Hill. Maybe a huge Rasheed Lewis overpay is still possible. He fit for sure and I loved Lewis but that was an overpay at the time even. The league has changed a lot. Free agency is for the bench players for Orlando which is important of course. I'm not saying we're going to sign a superstar. In fact my whole point is that we won't add a superstar in free agency but we can add real quality pieces which I believe. You're right, free agency has changed, more guys resign with their current teams and are traded later. That being said just from a cursory glance Cleveland, Houston, Dallas, Indiana all added starters in free agency last summer. I can maybe see arguments for Dallas and Houston but are we saying Cleveland is more desirable than Orlando? Or Indiana even? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Babir_9 95 Report post Posted January 8 We are one solid GM move away from becoming real contenders in the East already this season 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hootie249 293 Report post Posted January 8 18 hours ago, orlandoholic said: The Magic know what overpaying in FA means. It means that you have to pay major big bucks, or else nobody is gonna pickup the phone. Example Biyombo, J. Green, The worst was Grant Hill. We actually had enough money to outright sign him but his agents wanted even more so they engineered the trade that sent Ben Wallace back. All that was just to squeeze out a few more million. Sign and trades were just getting into a full blown thing back then. We looked so smart saving money for two major free agents. And then let an obviously injured Grant Hill and his agents rake us over some coals. It allowed the Pistons to get a valuable piece towards their championship and was also seen aa aa favor to the Pistons. His agents "forced" the trade and the Pistons would get something. Nobody knew how good Ben would be back then. This was the start of players and agents basically having all the power, and they still do to this day. Think of all the bull**** power plays that have happened the last 15 years starting with the Celtics/Nets, and all the LeBron stuff and leading up to the OKC nightmares, Durant and Harden,Dame etc.............. TL;DR for all you youngsters the Magic had enough cap room to sign Grant Hill and McGrady. His agents forced a sign and trade even though he was injured. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hootie249 293 Report post Posted January 8 3 hours ago, CTMagicUK said: I'm not saying we're going to sign a superstar. In fact my whole point is that we won't add a superstar in free agency but we can add real quality pieces which I believe. You're right, free agency has changed, more guys resign with their current teams and are traded later. That being said just from a cursory glance Cleveland, Houston, Dallas, Indiana all added starters in free agency last summer. I can maybe see arguments for Dallas and Houston but are we saying Cleveland is more desirable than Orlando? Or Indiana even? Who did those teams add as actual free agents? Just curious. to me the biggest change in the NBA is hardly any players actually reach free agency and then pick a new team. It's all extensions and trades these days, which sucks. The magic are actually going to have money right before Suggs and Wagner sign their extensions. It would be nice to sign a mid tier free agent like a Malik Monk or get a great back up center like Hartenstein. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luke_FfS 251 Report post Posted January 8 23 hours ago, CTMagicUK said: I don't really understand the trade Vs FA argument as it pertains to overpaying. An overpay for a free agent would be what? A couple more million a season than what other teams offer at most? (Some free agents may very well accept the same contract as other teams offer if they believe in the role etc). How does it affect the Magic if they give that extra couple mil to a free agent versus re-signing a 2 way guy to a guaranteed contract or something? There's a salary floor we have to reach anyway and even if we go way over the floor and over the cap into the tax it's not affecting us as fans until we cross the aprons etc and lose assets which we'd be doing in any trade anyway. So long as it doesn't negatively affect our ability to resign our main guys and build a contending roster - something I'd assume the front office would consider deeply - I don't see how it's a problem what contracts we give out. For example, did we overpay Joe Ingles? Maybe. Will it negatively affect us in any meaningful way long term? No. Maybe you're right and I'm just paranoid about those few millions. And about things you can't control, as the FA market it's not a sure thing, you'll have to convince that player to sign before "overpay" him. And if you miss your target, there's a tendency to spend that cap space in something bad. In a trade, you can choose the player already knowing his contract. You've to give up assets, but those could also be salaries that gave the team more flexibility in the future, and I also value that. And an overpay for a short contract like Ingles when you've cap space it's a thing. Another thing it's a big overpay for multiple years when you'll have to sign your stars to long deals. Anyway, it's all just on paper, I believe we agree that FO will wait and evaluate another time! :P 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
