Pistons Vs Magic

[Odin 137]

The history of success of this franchise has been on getting lucky in the lottery, but the history of success throughout the NBA has not been.

 

Who have the best players in the league been?

 

Michael Jordan drafted 3rd

Shaq drafted 1st

Kareem drafted 1st

Hakeem drafted 1st

Magic drafted 1st

Lebron drafted 1st

Larry Bird drafted 6th

Tim Duncan drafted 1st

Kobe Bryant drafted 13th

 

Etc.

 

You have a much better chance at getting at least a very good player at the top of the draft than you do later on down.

 

I am pretty sure the history of this league has been of teams getting lucky in the lottery.

[Franchise408 116]

its not contrarianism, it's a bias formed by emotion impacting your ability to understand probabilities. it's a weird brain thing that lotteries prey on which is why you see people blowing a bunch of money on lottery tickets because somebody has to win. but there's a relative certainty that it wont be you. Its the same thing we saw post September 11th. People were afraid to fly post 9/11 which resulted in increased distance driving. but you're considerably more likely to die by driving long distances than you are as a result of air travel, terrorism or otherwise. So the road fatalities in the year after 9/11 increased by 1,595 while commercial air travel has only had 4 fatal accidents in the 13 years after 9/11.

 

But wouldn't this apply to -you- since you're the one who's trying to pin all of our hopes on a lottery?

 

It has nothing to do with whatever psychological thing you are trying to play this up as to distract from the issue at hand. It has everything to do with the fact that it is NOT the coach's or player's jobs to lose for draft position, and it is the GM's and front office's job to be proactive in team building, and not sitting around waiting and hoping for circumstances that are out of anyone's control (I.E.: ping pong balls, draft prospects, success of draft prospects, etc.)

 

The draft is a tool.

 

Purposefully losing in hopes of unforeseen and unreliable circumstances playing out is not a tool.

[Franchise408 116]

Who have the best players in the league been?

 

Michael Jordan drafted 3rd

Shaq drafted 1st

Kareem drafted 1st

Hakeem drafted 1st

Magic drafted 1st

Lebron drafted 1st

Larry Bird drafted 6th

Tim Duncan drafted 1st

Kobe Bryant drafted 13th

 

Etc.

 

You have a much better chance at getting at least a very good player at the top of the draft than you do later on down.

 

I am pretty sure the history of this league has been of teams getting lucky in the lottery.

 

If Larry Bird went 6th, and we're likely to get a 5th round pick, then we are fine.

 

Kobe went 13th. That is NOT having luck in the lottery.

 

Of the past 20 championship teams, there were only 2 #1 overall picks that were drafted by their team:

-Kyrie, who was supplemented by LeBron, a former #1 overall pick who won 0 championships with the original team that drafted him.

-Duncan, who was supplemented first by a returning all time great center in David Robinson, and then later, for the next 4 championships, surrounding by low 1st round to 2nd round picks.

 

Wade was a 5th overall pick, supplemented by an all time great center, and then 2 all time great players in Bosh, and a potential greatest of all time LeBron.

Kobe was a 13th overall pick, supplemented by an all time great center, and then later, all star caliber teammates.

Curry was a 7th overall pick, supplemented by an 11th and a 2nd rounder.

Dirk was a 9th overall pick.

Boston swapped high picks for all time great players. One of those picks, a top 5, amounted to Jeff Green. The other pick turned into Wayne Ellington. Boston was absolutely right for giving up those draft picks.

Pistons won without any top picks period.

 

Championships aren't won via draft lottery. Championships are won via team building. Team building is something that Hennigan has not done. You do not need a #1 pick to find a player worthy of building around. Some would even argue that Gordon and Payton are quality enough players to be able to build around. We just need to do what successful teams do, and supplement the talent we have. Successful teams don't tank for draft position. Every team has ups and downs that fluctuate, and professional sports are designed to help losing franchises have a shot at being able to rebuild. That doesn't mean that the goal for rebuilding is to suck your way to winning. That doesn't happen. You don't say "well we haven't lucked into a star player yet via the draft so we won't even try". No, you use any means necessary. Boston turned a top 5 pick into Ray Allen. We likely have a top 5 pick this season. Outside of Kyrie, and the asterisk on Duncan, none of these championship centerpieces were drafted any higher by their original team than we are likely to draft this season, even with last night's win. There is nothing wrong with our draft position, and we should not be purposefully losing for the sake of it.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

But wouldn't this apply to -you- since you're the one who's trying to pin all of our hopes on a lottery?

 

It has nothing to do with whatever psychological thing you are trying to play this up as to distract from the issue at hand. It has everything to do with the fact that it is NOT the coach's or player's jobs to lose for draft position, and it is the GM's and front office's job to be proactive in team building, and not sitting around waiting and hoping for circumstances that are out of anyone's control (I.E.: ping pong balls, draft prospects, success of draft prospects, etc.)

 

The draft is a tool.

 

Purposefully losing in hopes of unforeseen and unreliable circumstances playing out is not a tool.

It's more reliable than the other options

[CTMagicUK 1,491]

If Larry Bird went 6th, and we're likely to get a 5th round pick, then we are fine.

 

Kobe went 13th. That is NOT having luck in the lottery.

 

Of the past 20 championship teams, there were only 2 #1 overall picks that were drafted by their team:

-Kyrie, who was supplemented by LeBron, a former #1 overall pick who won 0 championships with the original team that drafted him.

-Duncan, who was supplemented first by a returning all time great center in David Robinson, and then later, for the next 4 championships, surrounding by low 1st round to 2nd round picks.

 

Wade was a 5th overall pick, supplemented by an all time great center, and then 2 all time great players in Bosh, and a potential greatest of all time LeBron.

Kobe was a 13th overall pick, supplemented by an all time great center, and then later, all star caliber teammates.

Curry was a 7th overall pick, supplemented by an 11th and a 2nd rounder.

Dirk was a 9th overall pick.

Boston swapped high picks for all time great players. One of those picks, a top 5, amounted to Jeff Green. The other pick turned into Wayne Ellington. Boston was absolutely right for giving up those draft picks.

Pistons won without any top picks period.

 

Championships aren't won via draft lottery. Championships are won via team building. Team building is something that Hennigan has not done. You do not need a #1 pick to find a player worthy of building around. Some would even argue that Gordon and Payton are quality enough players to be able to build around. We just need to do what successful teams do, and supplement the talent we have. Successful teams don't tank for draft position. Every team has ups and downs that fluctuate, and professional sports are designed to help losing franchises have a shot at being able to rebuild. That doesn't mean that the goal for rebuilding is to suck your way to winning. That doesn't happen. You don't say "well we haven't lucked into a star player yet via the draft so we won't even try". No, you use any means necessary. Boston turned a top 5 pick into Ray Allen. We likely have a top 5 pick this season. Outside of Kyrie, and the asterisk on Duncan, none of these championship centerpieces were drafted any higher by their original team than we are likely to draft this season, even with last night's win. There is nothing wrong with our draft position, and we should not be purposefully losing for the sake of it.

 

That Cavs team had 2 number 1 overall picks and a guy who was traded for a number 1 overall pick.

 

Spurs team yea Duncan (a number 1 pick) was supplemented by Robinson... who was also a number 1 pick.

 

Wade was pick 5 true but Shaq was a number 1 pick as was LeBron and I doubt he'd have a single championship without those two guys.

 

Kobe was 13th overall but he won half of his championships with number 1 pick Shaq.

 

And you can make the point that guys didn't win with the team that drafted them but nowadays the NBA is way more geared towards franchises keeping the stars they draft.

[Odin 137]

That Cavs team had 2 number 1 overall picks and a guy who was traded for a number 1 overall pick.

 

Spurs team yea Duncan (a number 1 pick) was supplemented by Robinson... who was also a number 1 pick.

 

Wade was pick 5 true but Shaq was a number 1 pick as was LeBron and I doubt he'd have a single championship without those two guys.

 

Kobe was 13th overall but he won half of his championships with number 1 pick Shaq.

 

And you can make the point that guys didn't win with the team that drafted them but nowadays the NBA is way more geared towards franchises keeping the stars they draft.

 

And Gasoline who was #3 if I am remembering correctly.

[hootie249 293]

If Larry Bird went 6th, and we're likely to get a 5th round pick, then we are fine.

 

Kobe went 13th. That is NOT having luck in the lottery.

 

Of the past 20 championship teams, there were only 2 #1 overall picks that were drafted by their team:

-Kyrie, who was supplemented by LeBron, a former #1 overall pick who won 0 championships with the original team that drafted him.

-Duncan, who was supplemented first by a returning all time great center in David Robinson, and then later, for the next 4 championships, surrounding by low 1st round to 2nd round picks.

 

Wade was a 5th overall pick, supplemented by an all time great center, and then 2 all time great players in Bosh, and a potential greatest of all time LeBron.

Kobe was a 13th overall pick, supplemented by an all time great center, and then later, all star caliber teammates.

Curry was a 7th overall pick, supplemented by an 11th and a 2nd rounder.

Dirk was a 9th overall pick.

Boston swapped high picks for all time great players. One of those picks, a top 5, amounted to Jeff Green. The other pick turned into Wayne Ellington. Boston was absolutely right for giving up those draft picks.

Pistons won without any top picks period.

 

Championships aren't won via draft lottery. Championships are won via team building. Team building is something that Hennigan has not done. You do not need a #1 pick to find a player worthy of building around. Some would even argue that Gordon and Payton are quality enough players to be able to build around. We just need to do what successful teams do, and supplement the talent we have. Successful teams don't tank for draft position. Every team has ups and downs that fluctuate, and professional sports are designed to help losing franchises have a shot at being able to rebuild. That doesn't mean that the goal for rebuilding is to suck your way to winning. That doesn't happen. You don't say "well we haven't lucked into a star player yet via the draft so we won't even try". No, you use any means necessary. Boston turned a top 5 pick into Ray Allen. We likely have a top 5 pick this season. Outside of Kyrie, and the asterisk on Duncan, none of these championship centerpieces were drafted any higher by their original team than we are likely to draft this season, even with last night's win. There is nothing wrong with our draft position, and we should not be purposefully losing for the sake of it.

 

 

Amen!

[HeHateMe 697]

This debate :svgsad:

[Mauro Pedrosa 1,033]

This debate :svgsad:/>

It's only been going for 2 weeks. We need some more of it

[Magicman28 295]

This debate :svgsad:/>

 

 

Yeah it's already over. Up to the ping pongs now.

[Franchise408 116]

That Cavs team had 2 number 1 overall picks and a guy who was traded for a number 1 overall pick.

 

Spurs team yea Duncan (a number 1 pick) was supplemented by Robinson... who was also a number 1 pick.

 

Wade was pick 5 true but Shaq was a number 1 pick as was LeBron and I doubt he'd have a single championship without those two guys.

 

Kobe was 13th overall but he won half of his championships with number 1 pick Shaq.

 

And you can make the point that guys didn't win with the team that drafted them but nowadays the NBA is way more geared towards franchises keeping the stars they draft.

 

The argument that those guys weren't drafted by their championship teams is exactly the point. The Lakers or the Heat didn't hit the draft lottery to championships. They signed the talent away from the teams that hit the draft lottery. Us being one of those teams that lost our #1 pick talent.

 

The Cavs got it back on the back end, by drafting Kyrie, and then trading Wiggins and signing LeBron. Without LeBron, Kyrie isn't lifting the Cavs to the promised land (and on the flip side, without Kyrie, LeBron probably isn't even back in Cleveland, let alone winning a championship there. Really, your 1 valid point to the tanking argument is present day Cleveland)

 

Miami added the most high end free agent class of all time to a #5 pick. Wade wasn't winning 'ships without Bosh and LeBron, or Shaq before that. In fact, for the 2 years before Bosh and LeBron got there, Miami was that dreaded "mid seed playoff team" that everyone freaks out about being.

 

After the Spurs won their first championship, who was Duncan surrounded by? Here's a hint: it wasn't lottery picks.

 

Yes, drafting is crucial to team building. And yes, having a #1 overall pick obviously gives you a higher chance just by definition. But the draft is such a crap shoot, for every Kyrie and Anthony Davis, there's a Greg Oden, or Andrea Bargnani. And when you MISS with that higher pick? It sets you back even harder. Imagine how far back this franchise would have been set if we selected Okafor instead of Howard, which was a very realistic possibility at the time. Missing on that #1 overall pick would have killed us way more than picking a spot or 2 later and picking up a less than franchise changing player.

 

You don't play to lose games for draft picks. You play the games to win and pick where you pick. You let the draft fall how it may, and do your due diligence to get the best results. You cross that bridge when you come to it.

[Optimist Prime 197]

The argument that those guys weren't drafted by their championship teams is exactly the point. The Lakers or the Heat didn't hit the draft lottery to championships. They signed the talent away from the teams that hit the draft lottery. Us being one of those teams that lost our #1 pick talent.

 

The Cavs got it back on the back end, by drafting Kyrie, and then trading Wiggins and signing LeBron. Without LeBron, Kyrie isn't lifting the Cavs to the promised land (and on the flip side, without Kyrie, LeBron probably isn't even back in Cleveland, let alone winning a championship there. Really, your 1 valid point to the tanking argument is present day Cleveland)

 

Miami added the most high end free agent class of all time to a #5 pick. Wade wasn't winning 'ships without Bosh and LeBron, or Shaq before that. In fact, for the 2 years before Bosh and LeBron got there, Miami was that dreaded "mid seed playoff team" that everyone freaks out about being.

 

After the Spurs won their first championship, who was Duncan surrounded by? Here's a hint: it wasn't lottery picks.

 

Yes, drafting is crucial to team building. And yes, having a #1 overall pick obviously gives you a higher chance just by definition. But the draft is such a crap shoot, for every Kyrie and Anthony Davis, there's a Greg Oden, or Andrea Bargnani. And when you MISS with that higher pick? It sets you back even harder. Imagine how far back this franchise would have been set if we selected Okafor instead of Howard, which was a very realistic possibility at the time. Missing on that #1 overall pick would have killed us way more than picking a spot or 2 later and picking up a less than franchise changing player.

 

You don't play to lose games for draft picks. You play the games to win and pick where you pick. You let the draft fall how it may, and do your due diligence to get the best results. You cross that bridge when you come to it.

 

From 1996 to 2012, thirteen of those sixteen number one picks became all stars. If we include the next four, only Anthony Bennett was a flop. Wiggins and Towns are good enough to be projected as all stars, and Simmons has yet to play. So out of the last twenty first overall picks 15-16 are all star caliber players. That's not a one-to-one ratio on studs to flops.