CTMagicUK 1,483 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 Hoping we trade at least one of Payton, Fournier, Biyombo or Vuc. Just don't want to go into next season with the same core. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magicman28 295 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 its definitely not doomsday. Doomsday was Markkanen. The draft was disappointing. Not just because of Isaac. Isaac is going to be fine. I'm just not convinced he's the best pick for us and the next few years are going to be a real grind as we figure out what his real position is. He might have growing pains occupying the same space as Gordon. I'm not sure our team is the one who can get the most out of him as vucevic, payton, and Fournier are going to hurt our defense. mismatched fits again. Also I'm not confident Vogel is the best fit for Isaac. Vogel is really slow to adapt to unconventional players. Giving him ostensibly another Gordon when he wasn't very creative with Gordon in year one should make us feel uneasy. But I can make peace with the Isaac pick. It's not taking advantage of a highly valuable 35th pick when it wouldn't impact our free agency plans (non-guaranteed money), actually saves us money based on how second round picks are counted against the cap, and we could take advantage of the new rules to have a really interesting prospect to give a two way contract to. and even if we didn't want to use it on a player we could have used it to dump salary which might be the difference between signing a replacement level player or a solid player that could help Isaac and our other young players grow. Isaac is not another Gordon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Catalina Maria 64 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 its definitely not doomsday. Doomsday was Markkanen. The draft was disappointing. Not just because of Isaac. Isaac is going to be fine. I'm just not convinced he's the best pick for us and the next few years are going to be a real grind as we figure out what his real position is. He might have growing pains occupying the same space as Gordon. I'm not sure our team is the one who can get the most out of him as vucevic, payton, and Fournier are going to hurt our defense. mismatched fits again. Also I'm not confident Vogel is the best fit for Isaac. Vogel is really slow to adapt to unconventional players. Giving him ostensibly another Gordon when he wasn't very creative with Gordon in year one should make us feel uneasy. But I can make peace with the Isaac pick. It's not taking advantage of a highly valuable 35th pick when it wouldn't impact our free agency plans (non-guaranteed money), actually saves us money based on how second round picks are counted against the cap, and we could take advantage of the new rules to have a really interesting prospect to give a two way contract to. and even if we didn't want to use it on a player we could have used it to dump salary which might be the difference between signing a replacement level player or a solid player that could help Isaac and our other young players grow. Isaac is a two way player, unlike Gordon. On videos alone you can tell Isaac can play offense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 I agree about Vogel, it's a concern. But he did oversee the development of Paul George in Indiana so maybe there's hope. yeah but George is a much more conventional player. he was an extremely talented, well rounded player that coasted through high school and coasted through college but was the number one option on his team, shot a shade under 40% from 3, and utterly dominated the pre-draft process which made him leap up draft boards. So George had everything but needed a motivator more than anything. I don't think Isaac needs the motivation, he needs just development everywhere. Everything about him is a projection. We think he can shoot in theory (shot 34.8% from 3). we think he can handle the ball (didn't really do it too often). we think he can score (didn't ever exploit mismatches with the ball in college). It would help to have a creative coach that can scheme things for him. that can see us play phoenix and throw out a payton-fournier-ross-Gordon-Isaac lineup and dare them to match up. He never did that with George. and he probably shouldn't have. George is a really big shooting guard so playing him at shooting guard is probably the right thing to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 Isaac is not another Gordon. that's why I said "ostensibly" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miller4Prez66 545 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 Isaac for sure has more offensive skill than Gordon even if it isn't quite refined yet. I think he was more getting at the fact that he doesn't quite have a position he for sure fits into and as a player has a lot of developing to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wilbur 48 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 Yea, late first rounders never have much value. Rondo was not valuable. Kyle Lowry: almost useless, may as well give that pick away. Tony Parker sure didn't turn into much. David Lee hasn't done anything with his career. Jimmy Butler really wasn't worth that massive rookie contract. If Hammond can't find a guy he thinks has a solid chance of becoming a good rotation player in this draft at 25, he shouldn't be an NBA GM. He probably shouldn't even be talking about basketball on-line with grownups. I'm not making a ridiculous argument; and certainly my frustration with trading 25 and 35 for worse picks later has nothing to do with what we did at #6. I fully expected us to take Isaac. I'm not happy with that pick, but I'm glad it wasn't Lauri Markanan. We should have used 25 and 35 to move up, not just throw them away. This was very disappointing if the intent was to blow this thing up and start over... or to build on what we have and get better. After thought though, this is exactly what you'd do if you aren't sure what you've got and are going into a holding pattern. Biyombo, Fournier, EP, Hezonja, and Gordon are all currently 24 or under. Hezonja and Gordon are currently 22 or under. Seems to me Management checked the trade market for EP, Vuc and Fournier and determined we'd be better off giving them this season to prove their worth rather than simply cutting bait. Because draft picks, lick a new car, depreciate tremendously once they are spent, we simply punted two picks this year into the future to make certain we had future assets to deal. Sure I'd have like those assets to be appreciably better than the ones we gave up, but the fact they they aren't indicates that there wasn't a player on the board at that point that any team in the league was going to overpay to get. Management got what they could. The draft indicates to me that this year will be about evaluating building blocks that can be useful in the future and moving those players/contracts that no longer fit in with the blueprint. Decisions have to be made on Gordon and EP. To a lessor extent, a decision needs to be made on Hezonja. Hezonja's need for minutes makes one of Ross/Fournier expendable. Fournier is more expensive and signed for a longer period of time. I'm betting he's the guy leaving, but it might not be until the return on him picks up. Vuc is a bit like Ross at this point. He is on a reasonable contract, does some stuff well, but he isn't a piece that fits into the rebuild due to age. The likely effort is to eventually turn all of these players into future assets. However, some of them may just simply be addition by subtraction. Shedding Fournier's $17 million salary long-term and freeing up minutes for Hezonja is a win in itself. Sure I'd like to get something of value for arguably our best player. So would Management. I suspect that is the only reason he hasn't been dealt. There is some competitive team out there that would love to have Fournier coming off their bench... even at $17 million. I don't know what Isaac will be. That said, if Gordon proves himself worthy of the kind of extension he is going to want, a super athletic F combo isn't a terrible place to start a reboot. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Vogel 191 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 If we run Vuc-Biyombo at any point next year they should walk out on the court and fire Vogel Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LaVar 108 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 I was about to say, that's pretty damn good. People forget how good Lewis was in Seattle. He came here and his role completely changed but in Seattle he was a pretty damn good scorer. You add shot blocking, defense and rebounding to that... I think Isaac has better ball skills though. He still was an allstar for us. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 Isaac for sure has more offensive skill than Gordon even if it isn't quite refined yet. I think he was more getting at the fact that he doesn't quite have a position he for sure fits into and as a player has a lot of developing to do. yeah. as a guy who can unlock really fun, interesting, unconventional lineups that might totally transform how our team plays. Some of the best thing skiles did was, as he put it, "junk up the game". Throw oladipo at point guard, Gordon at center, weird wings in between and watch the other team stumble because they were unprepared to respond. Both Gordon and Isaac should play some 5, 4, and 3 and Vogel hasn't shown the ability to just throw things out there to see if they work. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Miller4Prez66 545 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 This was very disappointing if the intent was to blow this thing up and start over... or to build on what we have and get better. After thought though, this is exactly what you'd do if you aren't sure what you've got and are going into a holding pattern. Biyombo, Fournier, EP, Hezonja, and Gordon are all currently 24 or under. Hezonja and Gordon are currently 22 or under. Seems to me Management checked the trade market for EP, Vuc and Fournier and determined we'd be better off giving them this season to prove their worth rather than simply cutting bait. Because draft picks, lick a new car, depreciate tremendously once they are spent, we simply punted two picks this year into the future to make certain we had future assets to deal. Sure I'd have like those assets to be appreciably better than the ones we gave up, but the fact they they aren't indicates that there wasn't a player on the board at that point that any team in the league was going to overpay to get. Management got what they could. The draft indicates to me that this year will be about evaluating building blocks that can be useful in the future and moving those players/contracts that no longer fit in with the blueprint. Decisions have to be made on Gordon and EP. To a lessor extent, a decision needs to be made on Hezonja. Hezonja's need for minutes makes one of Ross/Fournier expendable. Fournier is more expensive and signed for a longer period of time. I'm betting he's the guy leaving, but it might not be until the return on him picks up. Vuc is a bit like Ross at this point. He is on a reasonable contract, does some stuff well, but he isn't a piece that fits into the rebuild due to age. The likely effort is to eventually turn all of these players into future assets. However, some of them may just simply be addition by subtraction. Shedding Fournier's $17 million salary long-term and freeing up minutes for Hezonja is a win in itself. Sure I'd like to get something of value for arguably our best player. So would Management. I suspect that is the only reason he hasn't been dealt. There is some competitive team out there that would love to have Fournier coming off their bench... even at $17 million. I don't know what Isaac will be. That said, if Gordon proves himself worthy of the kind of extension he is going to want, a super athletic F combo isn't a terrible place to start a reboot. There isn't a trade deadline after the draft. I guarantee you moves will be made and we aren't going into the season with the exact same group. Let's see out the entire offseason. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magicman28 295 Report post Posted June 23, 2017 that's why I said "ostensibly" Yeah I overlooked that. I understand your assessments here but I think it's worth taking a few minutes to read this https://www.ridiculousupside.com/2016/6/4/11858806/seminole-stud-a-look-at-top-florida-state-recruit-jonathan-isaac Ignore the grammatical errors btw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
