Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 And smart is? What? bad too but a completely different player. Booker has been bad, Winslow has been bad, Johnson has been bad, Cauley stein has been bad, gary harris has been bad, McDermott has been bad, Russell has been bad, KCP has been bad, Randle has been bad. Smart is a different player than Payton. Smart is a elite defensive combo guard. Payton is a inconsistently defensive point guard. They provide the team completely different looks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fan for too long 2 531 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 here are Payton's ranks last season: PER- he was 13.9 average is 14.0 so he was below average. Winshares/48 minutes- 340 players had a better number than he did last year Winshares- 212 players had higher winshares BPM- he was -1.3, 240 players had a higher BPM Assist%- 19 point guards had a higher assist % TO% only 26 point guards had a larger TO% So is per is .1% below avg. His win pct. Is based on a bad team. His assist % is based on bad shooters around him. These stats are skewed don't you think? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Odin 137 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 Is Smart really even a point guard? The only thing that he is good at is defense- he doesn't create offense (he averaged 3 assists a game last year...) and he can't shoot. That second part is really key, because, while he is actually not awful around the rim (53% within 3 feet), he is atrocious everywhere else, while rarely getting into the paint. He took 4!!!! shots per game behind the 3 point line and made an amazing 25% of them last year for context that is equivalent to shooting 37.5% on 2s. It will be interesting if he can get back to his rookie year's 33%- at least that is ok. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Years of Tragic and Magic 13 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 So is per is .1% below avg. His win pct. Is based on a bad team. His assist % is based on bad shooters around him. These stats are skewed don't you think? No doubt Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Odin 137 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 bad too but a completely different player. Booker has been bad, Winslow has been bad, Johnson has been bad, Cauley stein has been bad, gary harris has been bad, McDermott has been bad, Russell has been bad, KCP has been bad, Randle has been bad. Smart is a different player than Payton. Smart is a elite defensive combo guard. Payton is a inconsistently defensive point guard. They provide the team completely different looks. Do we have any metrics to back up the idea that Smart is an elite defensive combo guard? All the numbers that I have seen have pointed more to the idea that he is slightly above average than elite. On shots defended, opposing players shoot .3 percent lower than their normal percentages against him. opposing players have average basically a PER of 15 against him and an efg% of over 50%. The only positive correlation that I found that might show that he is elite (or close to elite) is that Boston is 1.2 points better on defense (per 100 possessions) when he is on the court. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Odin 137 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 here are Payton's ranks last season: PER- he was 13.9 average is 14.0 so he was below average. Winshares/48 minutes- 340 players had a better number than he did last year Winshares- 212 players had higher winshares BPM- he was -1.3, 240 players had a higher BPM Assist%- 19 point guards had a higher assist % TO% only 26 point guards had a larger TO% Shouldn't league average PER be 15? I thought that was the whole idea behind PER. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Odin 137 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 So is per is .1% below avg. His win pct. Is based on a bad team. His assist % is based on bad shooters around him. These stats are skewed don't you think? Which bad shooters? Orlando was an average team, fq%-wise, last year. It isn't win percentage- it is win-shares. He had the 12th highest per 48 minutes on our team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nyce_1 311 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 grain of salt.... @MagicalNBA: The Magic have had discussions internally about Lance. The questions - attitude and cost. He averaged 14 points a game for MEM though. @MagicalNBA: If Frank Vogel believes he can handle Lance, I think it would be a good, cheap gamble for a team that needs some offense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magicman28 295 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 grain of salt.... @MagicalNBA: The Magic have had discussions internally about Lance. The questions - attitude and cost. He averaged 14 points a game for MEM though. @MagicalNBA: If Frank Vogel believes he can handle Lance, I think it would be a good, cheap gamble for a team that needs some offense. A grain of salt indeed...Its Magical... Just for convo though, why? Fournier/AG/Green/Mario...Why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
magicdoc1 261 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 grain of salt.... @MagicalNBA: The Magic have had discussions internally about Lance. The questions - attitude and cost. He averaged 14 points a game for MEM though. @MagicalNBA: If Frank Vogel believes he can handle Lance, I think it would be a good, cheap gamble for a team that needs some offense. Jajaja!! Thats funny. Since when is Lance an offensive guy? I dont mind having him on this team but he is by no mean I guy that will accept a reserve role behind Hezonja and he also wants to get paid. Not happening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justin Jaudon 221 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 The "skiles hurt payton argument" comes from the idea that he finished his rookie year with a 20 game stretch of 12.6 ppg, 8.7 apg, 2.3 spg, on 45/35/59 shooting. that includes a 8 game stretch where he flashed 16/8 on 50/44/54 shooting (please note in both of these cases his three point shooting was trivial) Then he had obvious trouble adapting to Skiles system last season. Some guys respond differently to different coaching styles. So, Skiles hurt Payton by coaching him to a good stretch of games at the end of the season? Oh, we're blaming the first sixty games on Skiles, saying the last 20 was 'Payton overcoming Skiles' inept offense'. Hilarious. He had stretches during the entire season where he looked competent. But overall he looked terrible. That's why Skiles and he butted heads, from what I saw. Skiles always claimed he had talent, and that he could be good. Payton was one of the guys Skiles talked about early on being really excited about working with, because of his potential on D. But Skiles clearly resented Payton's lack of consistent effort, and Payton clearly resented Skiles asking for consist effort from him. We can say that Skiles hurt Payton only in that he refused to allow Payton to put up empty stats by refusing to work within a system. You are right to say that Payton had trouble adapting to Skiles' system last season, but he also had trouble adapting to Vaughn's and Borrego's. I've said before that I honestly don't think Payton can play within a system, because the things he does well all require him to have the ball on offense and take chances on defense. The problem is that he's not really prolific with the ball on offense, and his "defense" often results in him being out of position and other players having to make up for his taking chances. He's not a legitimate scoring threat because his foul shooting is terrible and he's not even all that good a finisher (and he's awful at everything else as a scorer). Likewise, his defense is hampered by his lack of focus and his inability to get around screens. His passing is literally the only thing he does that is above average, and even that is far from elite. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Neighborhood Bully 266 Report post Posted July 21, 2016 Shouldn't league average PER be 15? I thought that was the whole idea behind PER. The way the PER formula is constructed, the PER of an average NBA player is always 15. The following is a breakdown of what various PER values indicate: All-time great season: 35+ Hands-down MVP: 30-35 Strong MVP candidate: 27.5-30 Long-shot MVP candidate: 25-27.5 Definite All-Star: 22.5-25 Borderline All-Star: 20-22.5 Second offensive option: 18-20 Third offensive option: 16.5-18 Slightly above-average player: 15-16.5 Rotation player: 13-15 Non-rotation player: 11-13 Fringe roster player: 9-11 Player who won't stick in the league: 5-9 http://www.sportingc...rating-per.aspx Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
