Orlando Magic vs Boston Celtics - 11/29/15

[magicjed23 12]

This is why I am having a difficult time reading through all this BS about people on here complaining about what our coach is doing. It all seems to be about Dipo not starting, and as a Magic fan, I am more concerned about winning. If and when Skiles' lineups start sliding backwards, I'm confident that he will make changes. Until that happens, I suggest that we all sit back and enjoy it rather than complain about it.

 

The point of a message board is to discuss things. Some of us are capable of enjoying the games and still thinking that we could be even better. And we all have players we want to see play.

 

Starting shouldn't matter if you play equal minutes, but it does. Would you want a lesser position because your company thinks you'll work harder in it? Oladipo's improvement is his pride kicking in because he wants his starting job back I feel. It's not an indication that he should be relegated to sixth man. I'd venture to say what upsets him is that the better he plays the more people are thinking he should not start, but he is too professional to come out and say it. His body language in interviews gives him away.

[~O~ 565]

My point with Harden is everyone here would take him in a heartbeat. We all agree Dipo has not been good offensively and certainly not himself, but even so, if you want to focus on numbers since "they don't lie," then you have to consider this. That they suggest Oladipo is a better shooter, since everyone is obsessed with his production at the rim they may easily overlook these things. Of course we all want better shooting. Numbers do lie quite often though. And, Catman, I replied to you but I don't mean it as anything personal, I just personally think you're too reliant on numbers. You tend to say others twist numbers to fit their narrative when you do the same thing.

 

Oladipo is not an All-Star offensively and may never be , but he brings more to this team than most. And if this defense keeps up that is extremely valuable. He has a star personality and great work ethic. He is an emotional leader who plays with heart and he hustles more than most. He can attract other players just by intangibles (once we start our climb) and we can ill afford to lose that currently. So you only think stars matter in building a great team? Last I remember, role players are what make teams wwith stars great.

 

This lineup may work now, but that doesn't mean it will continue to. And we might just have an even better one. It is rough with Payton and Victor. But when Watson is back, what if you put him and Victor in the back court? If JV was such a bad coach, maybe that is why Victor didn't look good at the point. The way we swing the ball, why not try Vic at PG? Surely Payton can drive all day on 2nd teamers. And Hezonja not playing is ridiculous.

 

Oladipo is simply more deserving of a starting role than Payton and frankly even more deserving than Fournier. And I am a huge advocate for both players. But, I believe that the changes Victor has made defensively have earned him the starting job. To most, defense is not as flashy as scoring which is sad.

 

 

Dude...gross. Harden is the most unwatchable player in the league for me. All his offense is based on getting to the foul line on phantom calls or flops. It sucks the life out of the game and its absolute bull****. Teams with players like that take the joy out of basketball for me. Plus he doesn't play a lick of defense. Its no insult to you...I'm just saying. ***** Harden.

 

 

Hezonja not playing isn't ridiculous..he has a long ways to go. His defense and ball handling. He'll get time but with the current lineup, he's odd out.

 

Remember, Manu Ginobili doesn't start and is a hall of fame worthy player. Sheesh, remember what Golden State did last year with Iguodala. Having an elite player come off the bench helps if the opponents lack the depth. We have the depth to have Oladipo come off the bench.

 

Oladipo brings an immediate impact off the bench because he's a starting caliber player. We actually extend and sustain our lead with him coming off the bench and being an immediate impact on defense and offense now. He also is fresh at the 4 to 5 minute mark in the first which is when he came in to the game and beat up on the opponents backups.

 

I've only seen Oladipo at point once in one game this season. I'll have the check stats for that. We haven't run a lineup with oladipo at point for more than 10 minutes. Too unreliable and our past stats of lineups would be too not having the roster makeup we currently have. Remember, just because he's not officially listed at the point when he plays with Pier, Frid, and Watson doesn't mean he can't initiate the offense himself. You should look for that in game.

 

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612753&sort=GROUP_NAME&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*10

[Catalina Maria 64]

I have a solid 3 game sample to prove that they do.

 

"Solid" and "sample"???? Are you implying that I'm a worthless POS? I see what you are doing there. Wow!!! No wonder people want to come over and do a "number" on you! And you saying "do" as in doo-doo. That's just wrong and should not be allowed on this board. I'm insulted and Skiles should be too you calling his schemes poop.

[magicjed23 12]

The stats that you posted make it look that way. Victor leads in 3 categories (percentage categories) and is tied in one. I never said I believed that he is a better shooter. We both know Harden is great at getting to the line, that is what makes him so good. I'd have to be naive to think Victor shoots better. However, I have all the confidence that Victor will improve as the year progresses. I just think maybe Victor should pull up a step or two sooner and shoot given those stats. Shaq could have had a 55% overall shooting percentage and Reggie Miller a 46% overall (excluding free throws), does that make Shaq a better shooter? Heck no. They take different shots. My point is numbers lie very often and you base the majority of your arguments on numbers. In almost every sport, numbers don't tell half the story.

 

As far as deserving to start, Victor has no reason to have been benched. Sure Fournier started scoring much better than normal and Victor was down from what we expect, but that is not enough reason to bench him. But, Victor rebounds better, assists more, and is a better defender. Dipo focused where he was asked to and is doing it at an All-Star level. I put as much weight in Fournier's extra scoring as I do Victor's improvement on defense. But given his intangibles too, I believe Vic deserves it more. Simply my opinion.

 

I did not suggest Fournier should be benched either if you're implying that. I love Fournier and was thrilled when we traded for him. With the way he had been playing it's almost impossible not to start him. And when Skiles suggested he would change the lineup, my suggestion was to keep Fournier in at 2, slide Victor to the 1, thus benching Payton. I'm not downing Evan. Te worst thing I said is we don't know if he has improved so much or is just on a good run.

[magicjed23 12]

Dude...gross. Harden is the most unwatchable player in the league for me. All his offense is based on getting to the foul line on phantom calls or flops. It sucks the life out of the game and its absolute bull****. Teams with players like that take the joy out of basketball for me. Plus he doesn't play a lick of defense. Its no insult to you...I'm just saying. ***** Harden.

 

 

Hezonja not playing isn't ridiculous..he has a long ways to go. His defense and ball handling. He'll get time but with the current lineup, he's odd out.

 

Remember, Manu Ginobili doesn't start and is a hall of fame worthy player. Sheesh, remember what Golden State did last year with Iguodala. Having an elite player come off the bench helps if the opponents lack the depth. We have the depth to have Oladipo come off the bench.

 

Oladipo brings an immediate impact off the bench because he's a starting caliber player. We actually extend and sustain our lead with him coming off the bench and being an immediate impact on defense and offense now. He also is fresh at the 4 to 5 minute mark in the first which is when he came in to the game and beat up on the opponents backups.

 

I've only seen Oladipo at point once in one game this season. I'll have the check stats for that. We haven't run a lineup with oladipo at point for more than 10 minutes. Too unreliable and our past stats of lineups would be too not having the roster makeup we currently have. Remember, just because he's not officially listed at the point when he plays with Pier, Frid, and Watson doesn't mean he can't initiate the offense himself. You should look for that in game.

 

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612753&sort=GROUP_NAME&dir=1&CF=MIN*G*10

 

Don't worry, I am in no way saying that Harden doesn't do those things. But, the reality is most consider him to be a star and even though many base that on stats they fail to recognize the fault in stats they use as examples. Who cares what the media thinks either.

 

I agree that Victor can do all those things and I know he can distribute well enough in our current scheme and initiate offense. That is why a few games back I suggested starting him at the 1. Most of our starters could impact the bench in positive ways though. I'm just convinced the improvement is due to his pride, but if left in his current role, his unhappiness could affect his play negatively unless he changes hi thinking. H has done everything asked of him and he probably feels slighted but he is too professional to complain publicly.

 

I don't see anything about Hezonja that is going to cost us games by playing him. In crunch time he may not be a good option. But zero minutes? That is ridiculous considering Skiles said he considered starting him at beginning of the season.

[Catman 380]

Honestly have no idea what you are saying now. It's just like a stream of consciousness thing because I'm pretty you stated before that Oladipo was a better shooter than Harden. Now you are saying the numbers don't tell the story. Well, I hate to bear bad news, but the numbers really tell more story than any person's subjective viewpoint.

 

A few people have this confidence that Victor will shoot better, but what is it based on? Apparently you are saying your gut feeling trumps his statical history. I can't really buy into that, especially when his release is still flawed.

[magicjed23 12]

Honestly have no idea what you are saying now. It's just like a stream of consciousness thing because I'm pretty you stated before that Oladipo was a better shooter than Harden. Now you are saying the numbers don't tell the story. Well, I hate to bear bad news, but the numbers really tell more story than any person's subjective viewpoint.

 

A few people have this confidence that Victor will shoot better, but what is it based on? Apparently you are saying your gut feeling trumps his statical history. I can't really buy into that, especially when his release is still flawed.

 

Victor's history shows he has been a better shooter than this. But, you can see this by watching the games too. But look it up. Even flawed it is better than it was. Plus that is not his game (high % shooting), never was.

 

I base my arguments on both a subjective viewpoint and the numbers, which says more than numbers alone. However, to post an opinion on a message board, I don't need to find proof that I am right. I'm here to discuss things and hear what others are thinking, as this is not a contest.

 

The stats you linked make it look like Vic is a better shooter so far this year, looking at each area shown. I'm only referring to the table you linked. But, we know Harden is a better shooter, which shows your linked stats don't tell the full story (as they don't include previous seasons) which is that Harden is in a large slump. If I said Dipo is a better shooter I misspoke and simply meant you could interpret the table that way. I could argue that the bail out foul calls Harden gets and Vic doesn't get skew Harden's under the basket %. Stats lie often or give partial info and all sensible fans see that. That is the point. I'll admit maybe this is not the best example of numbers lying, but it does still demonstrate that.

[Tough Break There 96]

25 pages eh? I like it.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Lol fact:

 

Frye

Harris

Vuc

Fournier

Payton

 

Combo is 115 offense rate and 93 defense rate. Excellent offense and decent defense. Hence why Skiles chose THIS lineup and he is the coach.

 

ok, so since this stat was posted it's now dropped to a 112 offensive rating and a 101 defensive rating.

 

This is because in the last three games it's had a 108.5 offensive rating and a 110 defensive rating.

 

our most productive lineup has been oladipo-fournier-gordon-nicholson-smith with an offensive rating of 147.6 and a defensive rating of 74.4. note this is not really accurate as the lineup has played 6 minutes.

 

the two most productive lineups over the past 3 games that have actually played a decent amount of time are

 

shabazz-oladipo-gordon-nicholson-smith 93.8 offense 57.3 defense. so, bad offense, unbelievably good defense

 

and

 

Payton-oladipo-harris-nicholson-vucevic. 115.5 offense 85.5 defense. great offense. fantastic defense.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

our most productive lineup has been oladipo-fournier-gordon-nicholson-smith with an offensive rating of 147.6 and a defensive rating of 74.4. note this is not really accurate as the lineup has played 6 minutes.

 

the two most productive lineups over the past 3 games that have actually played a decent amount of time are

 

shabazz-oladipo-gordon-nicholson-smith 93.8 offense 57.3 defense. so, bad offense, unbelievably good defense

 

and

 

Payton-oladipo-harris-nicholson-vucevic. 115.5 offense 85.5 defense. great offense. fantastic defense.

 

No one cares about sample size.

 

But it's worth noting that the two things that all three of those lineups have in common: Oladipo and Nicholson, which means that we should just play those two guys all the time. The proof is in the numbers, guys.

 

Oladipo + Nicholson = all our best lineups.

[Catman 380]

Sure we do - here's some sample size for you on Victor:

 

5 games before removal from starting lineup:

3PT: 1/5 (20%), 1/1 (100%), 0/2 (0%), 2/5 (40%), 0/3 (0%)

FT: 0/0 (0%), 0/0 (0%), 1/4 (25%), 1/2 (50%), 0/0 (0%)

FG%: 38.9, 50, 0, 36.4, 41.7

PPG: 15, 3, 1, 11, 10

+/- : 8, -2, -6, -16, -14

 

3 games since removal from starting lineup:

3PT: 1/4 (25%), 0/2 (0%), 2/6 (33%)

FT: 1/4 (25%), 0/2 (0%), 2/6 (33%)

FG%: 33.3, 58.3, 41.7

PPG: 24, 17, 19

+/-: +16, +14, +15

 

 

Trying to see why people are so defensive of a SG who shoots this poorly from 3 and can barely break 40% in FG percentage and is currently horrible at making FTs.

 

The bench plus minus now with Victor on it is crazy good. The change is working for both units so far. The AJ/Smith combo is dominating other team's backup front court.

 

Let's see how it goes over the west coast trip.

[Catalina Maria 64]

ok, so since this stat was posted it's now dropped to a 112 offensive rating and a 101 defensive rating.

 

This is because in the last three games it's had a 108.5 offensive rating and a 110 defensive rating.

 

our most productive lineup has been oladipo-fournier-gordon-nicholson-smith with an offensive rating of 147.6 and a defensive rating of 74.4. note this is not really accurate as the lineup has played 6 minutes.

 

the two most productive lineups over the past 3 games that have actually played a decent amount of time are

 

shabazz-oladipo-gordon-nicholson-smith 93.8 offense 57.3 defense. so, bad offense, unbelievably good defense

 

and

 

Payton-oladipo-harris-nicholson-vucevic. 115.5 offense 85.5 defense. great offense. fantastic defense.

 

Ok. I personally love that last lineup:

 

Nicholson

Harris

Vuc

Dipo

Payton

 

I always thought highly of Andrew and was hoping one day he'd be productive. I hope it continues.