GAMETHREAD: ORLANDO vs Washington

[chosen12 75]

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http://oldfashioned3...ando_magic.html

 

 

 

 

Good article! Thanks!

[TreyMachine 398]

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http://oldfashioned3...ando_magic.html

 

You left out the most important part. He is currently 9th in PER. 9TH!!!! (well, 12th now - but still, look at who else is on this list).

 

RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA

1 Anthony Davis, NO 22 35.0 .620 7.1 5.7 24.8 8.7 24.3 16.3 33.14 248.4 8.3

2 Russell Westbrook, OKC 9 29.7 .598 20.7 13.1 38.0 5.2 15.2 10.4 31.78 82.8 2.8

3 DeMarcus Cousins, SAC 15 32.0 .586 9.2 14.0 30.7 12.1 32.9 23.2 27.68 122.4 4.1

4 Stephen Curry, GS 21 32.9 .629 26.3 11.1 27.9 2.2 13.7 8.3 26.95 164.5 5.5

5 Chris Paul, LAC 22 34.8 .612 37.3 7.2 22.9 1.8 13.8 7.9 26.45 176.4 5.9

6 Brandan Wright, DAL 24 19.0 .758 6.2 6.8 13.6 11.8 13.0 12.4 26.40 101.2 3.4

7 LeBron James, CLE 21 38.0 .584 22.8 11.2 29.9 2.6 14.4 8.5 25.55 179.2 6.0

8 James Harden, HOU 22 37.5 .581 19.4 12.8 30.8 2.9 15.9 9.4 25.46 184.3 6.1

9 Kevin Durant, OKC 6 29.3 .629 17.8 15.1 29.6 0.7 18.8 10.1 25.20 38.6 1.3

10 Marreese Speights, GS 20 16.5 .579 6.0 8.4 27.9 12.6 20.8 17.0 25.14 67.2 2.2

RK PLAYER GP MPG TS% AST TO USG ORR DRR REBR PER VA EWA

11 Dwyane Wade, MIA 16 32.4 .567 20.9 12.4 31.4 5.3 8.4 6.8 23.94 104.1 3.5

12 Kyle O'Quinn, ORL 10 19.3 .582 17.1 12.2 22.8 10.7 19.3 15.0 23.61 34.9 1.2

13 Marc Gasol, MEM 22 34.6 .578 16.5 11.0 24.3 5.0 20.2 12.9 23.31 144.6 4.8

14 Kyle Lowry, TOR 23 34.7 .550 27.6 6.6 25.6 3.4 12.6 8.0 23.22 145.3 4.8

15 Derrick Favors, UTAH 22 30.3 .584 9.0 8.4 20.8 11.6 20.9 16.2 22.86 112.9 3.8

16 Tim Duncan, SA 20 30.8 .540 16.1 11.3 21.7 11.5 28.6 20.2 22.69 102.7 3.4

17 Tyson Chandler, DAL 24 29.7 .713 12.5 14.6 12.7 16.2 27.9 22.0 22.68 128.5 4.3

18 Blake Griffin, LAC 22 34.5 .555 14.4 8.2 28.3 7.0 18.6 12.9 22.64 126.0 4.2

19 Chris Bosh, MIA 23 35.3 .572 9.0 9.6 25.8 4.1 25.4 14.6 22.50 144.2 4.8

20 Damian Lillard, POR 23 35.3 .599 24.1 9.8 24.5 1.9 13.3 7.7 22.45 138.5 4.6

 

While his play is going to clearly deviate back to a norm which is less than this, the numbers do not lie right now. The article that was linked also indicates that we're better on offense and better on defense as a team with O'Quinn is on the floor.

 

The man is going to get paid this summer, and I'm thinking O'Quinn will be more of a bargain than Harris. Would not be surprised in the least if we let Harris go but retain O'Quinn to go alongside Vuc and our starting lineup becomes Vuc-O'Quinn-Gordon-Oladipo-Payton with Fournier coming off the bench. Remember: Henny is a numbers guy who looks for quality buys. Something tells me he won't pay Harris max money but will pay O'Quinn $6-$8 mil (saving us $6-$8 mil in future salary to use).

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

You left out the most important part. He is currently 9th in PER. 9TH!!!! (well, 12th now - but still, look at who else is on this list).

 

 

 

While his play is going to clearly deviate back to a norm which is less than this, the numbers do not lie right now. The article that was linked also indicates that we're better on offense and better on defense as a team with O'Quinn is on the floor.

 

The man is going to get paid this summer, and I'm thinking O'Quinn will be more of a bargain than Harris. Would not be surprised in the least if we let Harris go but retain O'Quinn to go alongside Vuc and our starting lineup becomes Vuc-O'Quinn-Gordon-Oladipo-Payton with Fournier coming off the bench. Remember: Henny is a numbers guy who looks for quality buys. Something tells me he won't pay Harris max money but will pay O'Quinn $6-$8 mil (saving us $6-$8 mil in future salary to use).

 

If we let Harris walk due to not wanting to pay him a max contract while he continues putting up numbers like he is currently now, all so that the team can pay O'Quinn that kind of paycheck to be what amounts to a swing front court rotation player (remember Aaron Gordon is going to be returning), it will show that Hennigan has absolutely no knowledge in running a basketball team.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

You left out the most important part. He is currently 9th in PER. 9TH!!!! (well, 12th now - but still, look at who else is on this list).

 

That's fair: a comparison of O'Quinn to players like Marreese Speights and Brandon Wright is fair.

 

As has already been stated: O'Quinn is, at best, what? The 4th best big on the 9th seed in a weak conference? Vuc is better. Tobias is better. Frye probably isn't better, but has more valuable because his skillset is harder to replace. Gordon is already better.

 

The team is better with on the floor defensively, but that's largely because he's replacing the defensive liability that is Channing Frye. And the team is also a ridiculous 9.1pts per 100 possessions better when O'quinn isn't playing.

 

And you guys want to pay like 8m+ for this guy? Why?

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

That's fair: a comparison of O'Quinn to players like Marreese Speights and Brandon Wright is fair.

 

As has already been stated: O'Quinn is, at best, what? The 4th best big on the 9th seed in a weak conference? Vuc is better. Tobias is better. Frye probably isn't better, but has more valuable because his skillset is harder to replace. Gordon is already better.

 

The team is better with on the floor defensively, but that's largely because he's replacing the defensive liability that is Channing Frye. And the team is also a ridiculous 9.1pts per 100 possessions better when O'quinn isn't playing.

 

And you guys want to pay like 8m+ for this guy? Why?

 

Preach on space Jesus

[Franchero MVP 391]

And you guys want to pay like 8m+ for this guy? Why?

 

Somebody actually wants to pay him $8mill?

 

He's useful -- but not $8mill a year useful. I'm a fan of him though -- dude can pass, rebound, and his shot is improving.

[LaVar 108]

Somebody actually wants to pay him $8mill?

 

He's useful -- but not $8mill a year useful. I'm a fan of him though -- dude can pass, rebound, and his shot is improving.

3-5 million max for ko

[TreyMachine 398]

That's fair: a comparison of O'Quinn to players like Marreese Speights and Brandon Wright is fair.

 

As has already been stated: O'Quinn is, at best, what? The 4th best big on the 9th seed in a weak conference? Vuc is better. Tobias is better. Frye probably isn't better, but has more valuable because his skillset is harder to replace. Gordon is already better.

 

The team is better with on the floor defensively, but that's largely because he's replacing the defensive liability that is Channing Frye. And the team is also a ridiculous 9.1pts per 100 possessions better when O'quinn isn't playing.

 

And you guys want to pay like 8m+ for this guy? Why?

 

Quoting the article that was just posted:

 

The Magic are also better offensively with him on the floor, while they shoot similar percentages, the Magic score a much higher percentage of shots as a result of an assist which is a testament to the floor spacing that O’Quinn helps to provide the Magic with.

 

He's a big man who is smart, passes well, has a good shot, and an excellent concept of team defense. Because of the scarcity of good big men in this league (not lacking in size but size + skill), someone will pay him I'm sure in the $6-$8 million mark. $4-$6 mil is where I would like to get him.

 

And for those of you who believe that Tobias should get a max contract, you're then telling me that you're willing to give up Oladipo, Payton, or Gordon (and most certainly Fournier) as a core member of this team. With Tobias at $16, Vuc at $12, and Channing Fryre at $8, we will not be able to afford to keep all 3 - perhaps not even 2 in 2 years when Payton and Gordon are up for their qualifying offers.

 

To me, Tobias is an incredibly good scorer and leader. He's aggressive. But his play-making for others in limited. He's not a particularly good defender, ball-handler, or passer. All he does is score as a tweener. While I WANT him on our team, I have to look at the price of losing depth and asking myself "can we find scoring in other areas with other players while enhancing his weaker areas?"

 

You want a comparison: Carmelo Anthony. Anthony is a great individual talent. But he doesn't make the other guys around him better with his playmaking ability. He does ISOs well... how have his teams done over the past few years??

 

What do the championship teams over the past few years all have? Scorers who also were good passers and playmakers for others. When everyone else is focused on them, they were able to find the open man (Durant, James, Duncan, Parker, Wade, Ginobli, etc.). I just don't see that in Harris and don't think we should pay him like he's one of those guys.

 

I'll end with this: in Henny, I trust. If he makes the call - so be it. But I care more about having a complete team rather than signing a fringe All-Star to a max contract and jeopardize our depth and make it impossible to retain other players that may turn out even better than Tobias.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

With Vuc at 12 and harris at 16 we would have an estimated 60 million to split between payton, Vic, Gordon, and Fournier without going over the tax.

 

Edit: that's not including an additional ~10 million for roster filler.

[CTMagicUK 1,482]

The Magic are 0-4 in games where KOQ played more than 20 minutes... Just throwing that out there.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Quoting the article that was just posted:

 

That article is wrong. Or rather, it's making one claim while posting statistics that don't say what it's saying it does.

 

Actual Orlando Magic team Ortg:

With O'Quinn on the floor: 92.8

With O'Quinn off the floor: 101.9

 

 

The team DOES score a higher percentage of points off assisted baskets while O'Quinn is on the floor, but that's predominantly because the team's starting lineup has multiple isolation scorers on it.

 

TL;DR version: That article is stupid. Stop quoting it.

 

He's a big man who is smart, passes well, has a good shot, and an excellent concept of team defense. Because of the scarcity of good big men in this league (not lacking in size but size + skill), someone will pay him I'm sure in the $6-$8 million mark. $4-$6 mil is where I would like to get him.

 

I can't imagine what the people on this board would think if they watched a big who was actually a good passer. As much as you all over-rate O'Quinn's average passing, watching prime Drob would have made your eyes explode.

 

Anyway, if "someone will pay him I'm sure in the $6-8 million mark" how are we supposed to sign him for as little as half that?

 

And for those of you who believe that Tobias should get a max contract, you're then telling me that you're willing to give up Oladipo, Payton, or Gordon (and most certainly Fournier) as a core member of this team. With Tobias at $16, Vuc at $12, and Channing Fryre at $8, we will not be able to afford to keep all 3 - perhaps not even 2 in 2 years when Payton and Gordon are up for their qualifying offers.

 

First, Frye's deal ends the same year that Payton and Gordon's rookie deals end. So there is no scenario where anything involving Channing Frye prevents anything involving new contracts for Gordon or Payton.

 

Second, I'm not sure I've seen a single person say that Tobias Harris deserves a max deal.

 

Third, a max deal for a player with less than 6 years experience is less than 16m.

 

To me, Tobias is an incredibly good scorer and leader. He's aggressive. But his play-making for others in limited. He's not a particularly good defender, ball-handler, or passer. All he does is score as a tweener. While I WANT him on our team, I have to look at the price of losing depth and asking myself "can we find scoring in other areas with other players while enhancing his weaker areas?"

 

I have zero idea what this has to do with Kyle O'Quinn.

 

You want a comparison: Carmelo Anthony. Anthony is a great individual talent. But he doesn't make the other guys around him better with his playmaking ability. He does ISOs well... how have his teams done over the past few years??

 

About as well as Tracy McGrady's Magic teams.

 

What do the championship teams over the past few years all have? Scorers who also were good passers and playmakers for others. When everyone else is focused on them, they were able to find the open man (Durant, James, Duncan, Parker, Wade, Ginobli, etc.). I just don't see that in Harris and don't think we should pay him like he's one of those guys.

 

When did Durant win a title? When were Parker or Ginobli ever max players?

 

What does any of this have to do with Kyle O'Quinn? Do you think Kyle O'Quinn is a superstar?

 

I'll end with this: in Henny, I trust. If he makes the call - so be it. But I care more about having a complete team rather than signing a fringe All-Star to a max contract and jeopardize our depth and make it impossible to retain other players that may turn out even better than Tobias.

 

You're arguing with yourself here, and I am baffled as to why.

 

I may have died for your space sins, but this post is a mess that may be beyond forgiveness.

[KandiKane 136]

^ Thank you for taking the effort. Agree completely with what you have written.