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?4thewin

2017-2018 Official Season Discussion Thread

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DirtDan2012    94
1 minute ago, ROCK LEGENDS PHOTOGRAPHERS said:

Most of the time I agree but in THIS draft there are 5 guys that should quickly make a very major impact on whichever team drafts them. We really need to be one of those teams!

Give me a break. Chances are none of these guys are transcending type players. They may be good, but I don't see a James, Durant or even a Chris Paul type of player coming out of this draft. It's a crap shoot honestly.

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4 minutes ago, DirtDan2012 said:

Give me a break. Chances are none of these guys are transcending type players. They may be good, but I don't see a James, Durant or even a Chris Paul type of player coming out of this draft. It's a crap shoot honestly.

Yeah every single one of them could suck, or they could live up to the hype and be great. I'd sure love to take a shot at one of those and plays some craps. As bad as we are it really couldn't hurt, right?

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?4thewin    1,750
5 hours ago, Originalticketholder said:

Earlier we read Hawks are in tank mode,  add Suns to that list and we know Mavs, by Cuban comments, are on the list too.  Silver gonna fine Hawks and Suns too?  First year that weasel announces he is cracking down on teams that tank and 1/3 of the NBA in tank mode.  What an idiot!   Stan Van Gundy said he could solve tanking easily.  He said Make all rookie contracts one year and then they are unrestricted free agents.  First I thought he was crazy.  After this year he may be on to something!!   When the majority of 9 or 10 fanbases are mad at their team owners/coaches/players for playing to win (wanting to see their team lose for a better draft pick), I do not see that as healthy for the game itself!!

The suns aren't tanking they're just bad.   Players don't tank.  Front offices do. 

What you're insinuating "players throwing a game" would probably invalidate those players contracts and they'd be banned from the sport (see the black sox scandal). 

Also, players don't give a ***** about better draft picks because they think about the game differently than we do.  They don't see the salvation of a number one pick and great player.  They see:

1. A bad player who needs time to get good who they're not interested in taking the time to develop.  

2. Somebody gunning for their job.  

It's why the Cavs traded Wiggins when LeBron came back, mcgrady demanded a trade when we took Dwight.

Tanking isn't deliberately losing.  Tanking is putting your team at a reasonable disadvantage so that the other team is more likely to win. 

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Mike1989    54

I read this last night and thought it was an interesting read: 

https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/bulls-tanking-nba-history/

There are two main arguments. First, since the lottery was instated in 1985 only two teams have won the NBA championship with their number one pick: Spurs (David Robinson and Tim Duncan) and Cavaliers (LeBron James and Kyrie Irving). The second argument was that since 1985 teams have finished with 25 or fewer wins on 137 occasions. Of those teams only the Spurs (1997/1999 title), Heat (2003/2006), Celtics (2007/2008), Cavs (2011/2016) and Warriors (2012/2015) have turned it around and won a title within five years. He discounts the Celtics as draft related because theirs was more about the trades for Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen. So since 1985 tanking has a 4-132-1 record. Ultimately he concludes that just because some organisations draft high doesn't mean they get it right or that they go on to have success, most don't. However, the good teams manage to find franchise changing talent regardless of where they are picking in the draft. 

Essentially it confirms what I have argued on here in recent weeks, that we shouldn't be obsessed about tanking to get the first overall or second overall pick. We should value the development of our younger players on this roster and if that results in a few wins that leaves us picking 4th or 5th or 6th - so be it. The best teams in this league don't tend to line up multiple 1st and 2nd overall draft selections. Besides, this year there isn't a LeBron James or Kevin Durant. There isn't even an Andrew Wiggins. So while I don't dispute the value of a top five pick in this year's draft, what I would say is that for our team to rebuild successfully we are going to need to do more than pick in the top few. The front office needs to be smarter in their scouting to ensure we get those franchise changing players wherever they pick. They also need to be smarter in free agency and with the trades they make. The coaching staff needs to be better at developing our young talent to make sure they achieve their potential. For me, rebuilding this team takes more than a top pick. It is not that simple. This team does need to continue to add talent, but that talent doesn't necessarily have to be the first or second guy off the board to change the direction of this team. 

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magicdoc1    165
55 minutes ago, Mike1989 said:

I read this last night and thought it was an interesting read: 

https://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/bulls-tanking-nba-history/

There are two main arguments. First, since the lottery was instated in 1985 only two teams have won the NBA championship with their number one pick: Spurs (David Robinson and Tim Duncan) and Cavaliers (LeBron James and Kyrie Irving). The second argument was that since 1985 teams have finished with 25 or fewer wins on 137 occasions. Of those teams only the Spurs (1997/1999 title), Heat (2003/2006), Celtics (2007/2008), Cavs (2011/2016) and Warriors (2012/2015) have turned it around and won a title within five years. He discounts the Celtics as draft related because theirs was more about the trades for Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen. So since 1985 tanking has a 4-132-1 record. Ultimately he concludes that just because some organisations draft high doesn't mean they get it right or that they go on to have success, most don't. However, the good teams manage to find franchise changing talent regardless of where they are picking in the draft. 

Essentially it confirms what I have argued on here in recent weeks, that we shouldn't be obsessed about tanking to get the first overall or second overall pick. We should value the development of our younger players on this roster and if that results in a few wins that leaves us picking 4th or 5th or 6th - so be it. The best teams in this league don't tend to line up multiple 1st and 2nd overall draft selections. Besides, this year there isn't a LeBron James or Kevin Durant. There isn't even an Andrew Wiggins. So while I don't dispute the value of a top five pick in this year's draft, what I would say is that for our team to rebuild successfully we are going to need to do more than pick in the top few. The front office needs to be smarter in their scouting to ensure we get those franchise changing players wherever they pick. They also need to be smarter in free agency and with the trades they make. The coaching staff needs to be better at developing our young talent to make sure they achieve their potential. For me, rebuilding this team takes more than a top pick. It is not that simple. This team does need to continue to add talent, but that talent doesn't necessarily have to be the first or second guy off the board to change the direction of this team. 

That is a good read indeed. But I don't think we are tanking for the top pick. We, and like other 5 teams, are in need of tanking with the purpose to end at the bottom 6-7. Most of the quality players that can make a difference and provide immediate impact for any team will be likely picked in the top 7. 

Now, I am not pro tanking but certainly against not developing our young core of players. It happened with Mario over the past 2 years. We need to give more  playing time and role in the lineup to players like Mario, Berch, Isaac, Iwundu, Vaugh and Artis. I will like to see where we are with them before bringing 3 new players to our team during this year draft. I dont need to see more of Biz, Vuch or even Simmons( they will likely be in our lineup next year and part of our rotation, pending any trades).   We cetainly no need to see more of Afflalo or Speights as they will be clearly gone by the end of the season. 

Some people call that tanking but call that developing. 

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JJZFL    107
2 minutes ago, magicdoc1 said:

That is a good read indeed. But I don't think we are tanking for the top pick. We, and like other 5 teams, are in need of tanking with the purpose to end at the bottom 6-7. Most of the quality players that can make a difference and provide immediate impact for any team will be likely picked in the top 7. 

Now, I am not pro tanking but certainly against not developing our young core of players. It happened with Mario over the past 2 years. We need to give more  playing time and role in the lineup to players like Mario, Berch, Isaac, Iwundu, Vaugh and Artis. I will like to see where we are with them before bringing 3 new players to our team during this year draft. I dont need to see more of Biz, Vuch or even Simmons( they will likely be in our lineup next year and part of our rotation, pending any trades).   We cetainly no need to see more of Afflalo or Speights as they will be clearly gone by the end of the season. 

Some people call that tanking but call that developing. 

Well said.  I’ve certainly seen enough of Vuch putting up numbers while the other team gets to do a lay up drill against us.  

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JJZFL    107
3 minutes ago, magicdoc1 said:

That is a good read indeed. But I don't think we are tanking for the top pick. We, and like other 5 teams, are in need of tanking with the purpose to end at the bottom 6-7. Most of the quality players that can make a difference and provide immediate impact for any team will be likely picked in the top 7. 

Now, I am not pro tanking but certainly against not developing our young core of players. It happened with Mario over the past 2 years. We need to give more  playing time and role in the lineup to players like Mario, Berch, Isaac, Iwundu, Vaugh and Artis. I will like to see where we are with them before bringing 3 new players to our team during this year draft. I dont need to see more of Biz, Vuch or even Simmons( they will likely be in our lineup next year and part of our rotation, pending any trades).   We cetainly no need to see more of Afflalo or Speights as they will be clearly gone by the end of the season. 

Some people call that tanking but call that developing. 

Could not agree more.  Been saying this for six years.  +1from me. 

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Mike1989    54
29 minutes ago, magicdoc1 said:

That is a good read indeed. But I don't think we are tanking for the top pick. We, and like other 5 teams, are in need of tanking with the purpose to end at the bottom 6-7. Most of the quality players that can make a difference and provide immediate impact for any team will be likely picked in the top 7. 

Now, I am not pro tanking but certainly against not developing our young core of players. It happened with Mario over the past 2 years. We need to give more  playing time and role in the lineup to players like Mario, Berch, Isaac, Iwundu, Vaugh and Artis. I will like to see where we are with them before bringing 3 new players to our team during this year draft. I dont need to see more of Biz, Vuch or even Simmons( they will likely be in our lineup next year and part of our rotation, pending any trades).   We cetainly no need to see more of Afflalo or Speights as they will be clearly gone by the end of the season. 

Some people call that tanking but call that developing. 

Agreed. There does need to be a greater emphasis on giving the young players more minutes. We could adopt a system where we rest certain veteran players each game night, thus creating greater opportunities for their younger players to soak up more minutes. Realistically players like Afflalo and Speights do not have long term futures with this team, so they should sit the majority of our remaining games because we have enough depth with Vaughn, Hezonja, Iwundu, Artis, Isaac and Birch. In regards to our center position, we should start Vucevic or Biyombo and the other should sit, with Birch getting the main backup minutes at center, and if we need some odd minutes let Isaac or Gordon do the job. 

Our process for the rest of this season should be about developing our young players and evaluating which players have a long term future with this team. I would not call that tanking either because I don't think we are intentionally trying to lose, however if we do start to sit certain veterans and limit the minutes of other veterans, that does help the team tank because the lines ups and rotations might take a hit. Then again, considering how some of our veterans currently perform I suspect the difference wouldn't be too substantial. 

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JJZFL    107
2 hours ago, Mike1989 said:

Agreed. There does need to be a greater emphasis on giving the young players more minutes. We could adopt a system where we rest certain veteran players each game night, thus creating greater opportunities for their younger players to soak up more minutes. Realistically players like Afflalo and Speights do not have long term futures with this team, so they should sit the majority of our remaining games because we have enough depth with Vaughn, Hezonja, Iwundu, Artis, Isaac and Birch. In regards to our center position, we should start Vucevic or Biyombo and the other should sit, with Birch getting the main backup minutes at center, and if we need some odd minutes let Isaac or Gordon do the job. 

Our process for the rest of this season should be about developing our young players and evaluating which players have a long term future with this team. I would not call that tanking either because I don't think we are intentionally trying to lose, however if we do start to sit certain veterans and limit the minutes of other veterans, that does help the team tank because the lines ups and rotations might take a hit. Then again, considering how some of our veterans currently perform I suspect the difference wouldn't be too substantial. 

We might even be better. 

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matthi32    8

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/249074/Kawhi-Leonard-Spurs-Have-Tremendous-Disconnect-Right-Now

If there is something true on this story, I would love to trade for Leonard!

Maybe we could offer a trade like this (include our 2019 draftpick)

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ycosnnoh

Wasn't Pop very high on Isaac?

I know the chances are very small, but a team with Leonard, Gordon and Trae Young would be awesome!

Young / Augustin

Ross / Simmons

Leonard / Simmons

Gordon / Gasol

Gasol / Biyombo / Birch

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6 hours ago, ?4thewin said:

The suns aren't tanking they're just bad.   Players don't tank.  Front offices do. 

What you're insinuating "players throwing a game" would probably invalidate those players contracts and they'd be banned from the sport (see the black sox scandal). 

Also, players don't give a ***** about better draft picks because they think about the game differently than we do.  They don't see the salvation of a number one pick and great player.  They see:

1. A bad player who needs time to get good who they're not interested in taking the time to develop

2. Somebody gunning for their job.  

It's why the Cavs traded Wiggins when LeBron came back, mcgrady demanded a trade when we took Dwight.

Tanking isn't deliberately losing.  Tanking is putting your team at a reasonable disadvantage so that the other team is more likely to win. 

       No insinuation on players "tanking" in my post.  It was about fan's attitudes about wanting to tank at this point and the solution to tanking, which IS being done soley by FO's and I agree with you onm that, but tanking is still not healthy for the league.  Silver's first attempt at addressing it not working so maybe Stan Van Gundy's asnwer should be considered. Lakers and Philly (to try to get top 3 picks) have tanked the last few years and it has helped them get better players.  It will never, all unto itself, transform any team.  Tell me, anybody on this board, would not like to be where Philly and the Lakers are at this point--good young players who do not cost you a lot of money and available cap space this year (Lakers=2 max contracts available and Philly with one max contract slot to potentially make a run at Lebon or another star this year).  They have done this by tanking or whatever name you want to call it, wheeling and dealing, assessment and, to a lesser extent, development.  Lakers have perfected a different way of tanking--trading away really good players to create salary room (this years trades) or get a better draft pick last year (Lou Williams trade) to chase free agents.  They did the same thing the year they got Shaq and did it again the last two years. 

        All fans of bad teams rely on one word--Hope.  It was sad to watch the Knicks game the other night with so many empty seats, and I was seeing the really good seats empty.  I hope our FO knows what they are doing.  I hope we tank (or whatever we call it) this year and never again.  I think this draft has at least 5 really, really good players (maybe 7) who will improve a team.  We are limited in cap space so our hope is in development of our young players and, more so, in the draft this year.  We have some good players but someone in the top 5-7 may be that star we are missing-- possibly Porter a " poor mans Durant" type player, Young or Doncic a  "Curry" like impact player,  Bamba or Ayton have "Embiid" like impact, JJJ or Bagley "Kevin Garnett" like player.  After that it drops off.  And finally I hope, after messing up once again by not extending his contract,  we resign Mario Hezonja.

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JJZFL    107
14 minutes ago, Originalticketholder said:

       No insinuation on players "tanking" in my post.  It was about fan's attitudes about wanting to tank at this point and the solution to tanking, which IS being done soley by FO's and I agree with you onm that, but tanking is still not healthy for the league.  Silver's first attempt at addressing it not working so maybe Stan Van Gundy's asnwer should be considered. Lakers and Philly (to try to get top 3 picks) have tanked the last few years and it has helped them get better players.  It will never, all unto itself, transform any team.  Tell me, anybody on this board, would not like to be where Philly and the Lakers are at this point--good young players who do not cost you a lot of money and available cap space this year (Lakers=2 max contracts available and Philly with one max contract slot to potentially make a run at Lebon or another star this year).  They have done this by tanking or whatever name you want to call it, wheeling and dealing, assessment and, to a lesser extent, development.  Lakers have perfected a different way of tanking--trading away really good players to create salary room (this years trades) or get a better draft pick last year (Lou Williams trade) to chase free agents.  They did the same thing the year they got Shaq and did it again the last two years. 

        All fans of bad teams rely on one word--Hope.  It was sad to watch the Knicks game the other night with so many empty seats, and I was seeing the really good seats empty.  I hope our FO knows what they are doing.  I hope we tank (or whatever we call it) this year and never again.  I think this draft has at least 5 really, really good players (maybe 7) who will improve a team.  We are limited in cap space so our hope is in development of our young players and, more so, in the draft this year.  We have some good players but someone in the top 5-7 may be that star we are missing-- possibly Porter a " poor mans Durant" type player, Young or Doncic a  "Curry" like impact player,  Bamba or Ayton have "Embiid" like impact, JJJ or Bagley "Kevin Garnett" like player.  After that it drops off.  And finally I hope, after messing up once again by not extending his contract,  we resign Mario Hezonja.

Good post.

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