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2017-2018 Official Season Discussion Thread

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Tank Vogel    145
32 minutes ago, Murphy13 said:

It's been 21 years since the team who picked #1 has won a championship.  I guess they don't count Lebron because he left Cleveland and went back?

Cleveland picked 1 3 times in 4 years even after Lebron

Edit: Article is from 2014

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Magicman28    249
9 minutes ago, Murphy13 said:

I agree not to trade star players, my history is evidence of that.  My counter is that your argument wasn't bolstered in the least bit by the link you provided and was contradictory at the end.  That is all.  That' doesn't mean I disagree with your opinion.  

No it doesn't because my argument is and always has been if you want to get a good player, a star player, your chances are greater with a top 3 pick. Your chances of a top 3 pick are greater if you tank.

It's pretty cut and dry.

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ML6    243
1 hour ago, Murphy13 said:

The problem you face is that your belief on what constitutes what's good or not is heavier into bias than objectivity.  Someone posts videos of all the times player X has been blown by and you believe hes like that all the time but it's forgotten that player X has plenty of shutdown moments as well because you focus on what you're shown by people who care more about proving their point than being objective.  It's okay to not agree with some talking head or some poster on you favorite forum, that doesn't mean that something can't be taken from their position as the truth is likely somewhere in the middle.  Balance is the key and the balanced opinion on the guy you speak of is that he has everything it takes to be a very good defender and is currently not as bad as some think.  

Are you one of those people who thinks there’s a deep state FBI conspiracy? Because that’s a similar case where all facts/evidence point to the contrary but a faction continues to believe it and won’t listen to reason. 

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JJZFL    107
2 hours ago, Magicman28 said:

No it doesn't because my argument is and always has been if you want to get a good player, a star player, your chances are greater with a top 3 pick. Your chances of a top 3 pick are greater if you tank.

It's pretty cut and dry.

Chances are better of getting a top 3 pick if you’re terrible, true, but does that make it worth being purposely terrible?  How many of those top three picks are going to be good enough to turn around the disaster that you’ve built, including the losing habits?  Again, this kind of thinking is why we are where we are today.  A few of us warned about it 6 years ago and were roundly ridiculed. You see, we were going to get Wiggins and that would transform us into world beaters. 

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Magicman28    249
38 minutes ago, JJZFL said:

Chances are better of getting a top 3 puck if you’re terrible, true, but does that make it worth being purposely terrible?  How many of those top three picks are going to be good enough to turn around the disaster that you’ve built, including the losing habits?  Again, this kind of thinking is why we are where we are today.  A few of us warned about it 6 years ago and were roundly ridiculed. You see, we were going to get Wiggins and that would transform us into world beaters. 

Your first question, I'll take my chances. A lot more goes into it that you're missing in the argument. Timing, coach, future cap room + availability of players, etc. What would this franchise be today if we never sucked and drafted Shaq with the top pick? What about Dwight? Two top picks that without em, we probably would never sniff the finals.

Your second question, that's depends on some of the variables and who that pick is. The whole losing habit thing is abused. Definitely can develop those but Sometimes you just need good ol fashion, never failing talent. Dive for lose balls, play the PNR's hard, execute on both ends, are all pluses but no talent? You can still be at the bottom looking up.

What happened to us is what some of us have said happened. Instead of letting players develop, reassessing and seeing what fits and what doesn't and liquidate the ones that don't, Martins brought in Skiles in a sped up process. We went from a direction to young asset building/development to "Get me my boys so we can win asap" direction and where did THAT get us? 

 

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Justin Jaudon    158
50 minutes ago, Magicman28 said:

Your first question, I'll take my chances. A lot more goes into it that you're missing in the argument. Timing, coach, future cap room + availability of players, etc. What would this franchise be today if we never sucked and drafted Shaq with the top pick? What about Dwight? Two top picks that without em, we probably would never sniff the finals.

Your second question, that's depends on some of the variables and who that pick is. The whole losing habit thing is abused. Definitely can develop those but Sometimes you just need good ol fashion, never failing talent. Dive for lose balls, play the PNR's hard, execute on both ends, are all pluses but no talent? You can still be at the bottom looking up.

What happened to us is what some of us have said happened. Instead of letting players develop, reassessing and seeing what fits and what doesn't and liquidate the ones that don't, Martins brought in Skiles in a sped up process. We went from a direction to young asset building/development to "Get me my boys so we can win asap" direction and where did THAT get us? 

 

Again, I think Skiles actually had us going in the right direction. Hennigan made some bad moves in the sped up process, but let's be honest, the process should have worked, if we'd just chosen the right players to bet on. Think about it. We had two really good players in Victor and Aaron, both of whom were playing well and developing by the end of the Skiles year. Skiles clearly wanted to upgrade the PG position, which we should have done. He didn't seem too fond of Vuc, either, pulling him for long periods during games and even bringing him off the bench some at the end of the year (something we've all wanted to see). We won 35 games (a ten game improvement from the previous season), a total that in a lot of years would put you in contention for a playoff spot in the East. We were a team on the rise, if not quite as fast as we'd hoped. But Skiles punked out, and Hennigan lost his freakin' mind, trading our best player for garbage, forcing our second-best player to learn a new position, and spending crap-loads of money on terrible FA contracts.

 

I have little doubt if Skiles had just manned up, stuck around, we would have been a playoff team last year, and no doubt we would have been by this season. We were already headed in that direction, a Skiles team has never missed the playoffs in its second season, and - most importantly - we likely wouldn't have traded Victor Oladipo.

 

My point is that Hiring Skiles - a win-now coach - and changing gears to win-now mode isn't why we are terrible now. We got what we needed out of the tank, two potential All-Stars. We needed to switch to trying to win. Our management just failed the win-now switch on an epic level. We did everything you aren't supposed to do in that situation. Instead of building on what we'd already done, we panicked. Hennigan thought he was smarter than everyone in choosing Evan over 'Dipo. Vogel thought he could go against the league in playing a massive lineup with two guys who weren't shooting well. Again, we had the talent to switch gears, we just traded half of it away and ruined our cap flexibility.

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JJZFL    107
1 hour ago, Magicman28 said:

Your first question, I'll take my chances. A lot more goes into it that you're missing in the argument. Timing, coach, future cap room + availability of players, etc. What would this franchise be today if we never sucked and drafted Shaq with the top pick? What about Dwight? Two top picks that without em, we probably would never sniff the finals.

Your second question, that's depends on some of the variables and who that pick is. The whole losing habit thing is abused. Definitely can develop those but Sometimes you just need good ol fashion, never failing talent. Dive for lose balls, play the PNR's hard, execute on both ends, are all pluses but no talent? You can still be at the bottom looking up.

What happened to us is what some of us have said happened. Instead of letting players develop, reassessing and seeing what fits and what doesn't and liquidate the ones that don't, Martins brought in Skiles in a sped up process. We went from a direction to young asset building/development to "Get me my boys so we can win asap" direction and where did THAT get us? 

 

We were very lucky with Shaq and Dwight. Two players who could single handedly turn around a franchise.  Appears perceptions were warped by those extremely rare events so that some people believe you can tank and rely on winding up with players like that.  You’re trying to repeat history but the reality is you could tank for 20 years and not see it happen again. But you’d have 20 years of terrible basketball to deal with. 

Remember also that we weren’t trying to tank before we drafted either Shaq or Dwight. 

Heart and hustle didn’t have a lot of talent but they weren’t on the bottom looking up. They set a solid foundation for future success, the opposite of our approach under Hennigan. 

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The Boss    51
34 minutes ago, Justin Jaudon said:

Again, I think Skiles actually had us going in the right direction. Hennigan made some bad moves in the sped up process, but let's be honest, the process should have worked, if we'd just chosen the right players to bet on. Think about it. We had two really good players in Victor and Aaron, both of whom were playing well and developing by the end of the Skiles year. Skiles clearly wanted to upgrade the PG position, which we should have done. He didn't seem too fond of Vuc, either, pulling him for long periods during games and even bringing him off the bench some at the end of the year (something we've all wanted to see). We won 35 games (a ten game improvement from the previous season), a total that in a lot of years would put you in contention for a playoff spot in the East. We were a team on the rise, if not quite as fast as we'd hoped. But Skiles punked out, and Hennigan lost his freakin' mind, trading our best player for garbage, forcing our second-best player to learn a new position, and spending crap-loads of money on terrible FA contracts.

 

I have little doubt if Skiles had just manned up, stuck around, we would have been a playoff team last year, and no doubt we would have been by this season. We were already headed in that direction, a Skiles team has never missed the playoffs in its second season, and - most importantly - we likely wouldn't have traded Victor Oladipo.

 

My point is that Hiring Skiles - a win-now coach - and changing gears to win-now mode isn't why we are terrible now. We got what we needed out of the tank, two potential All-Stars. We needed to switch to trying to win. Our management just failed the win-now switch on an epic level. We did everything you aren't supposed to do in that situation. Instead of building on what we'd already done, we panicked. Hennigan thought he was smarter than everyone in choosing Evan over 'Dipo. Vogel thought he could go against the league in playing a massive lineup with two guys who weren't shooting well. Again, we had the talent to switch gears, we just traded half of it away and ruined our cap flexibility.

Good post, I agree with everything said here.

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magicblue    229
2 hours ago, JJZFL said:

Chances are better of getting a top 3 pick if you’re terrible, true, but does that make it worth being purposely terrible?  How many of those top three picks are going to be good enough to turn around the disaster that you’ve built, including the losing habits?  Again, this kind of thinking is why we are where we are today.  A few of us warned about it 6 years ago and were roundly ridiculed. You see, we were going to get Wiggins and that would transform us into world beaters. 

How do you differentiate between terrible and purposefully terrible? I mean we've certainly been terrible over the last 5 years, no? And yet only one top three pick to show for it. And somehow we're still terrible. I wonder why?

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Magicman28    249
1 hour ago, JJZFL said:

We were very lucky with Shaq and Dwight. Two players who could single handedly turn around a franchise.  Appears perceptions were warped by those extremely rare events so that some people believe you can tank and rely on winding up with players like that.  You’re trying to repeat history but the reality is you could tank for 20 years and not see it happen again. But you’d have 20 years of terrible basketball to deal with. 

Remember also that we weren’t trying to tank before we drafted either Shaq or Dwight. 

Heart and hustle didn’t have a lot of talent but they weren’t on the bottom looking up. They set a solid foundation for future success, the opposite of our approach under Hennigan. 

How many of the last 6 years do you think we purposely tanked?

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Tank Vogel    145
9 minutes ago, Magicman28 said:

How many of the last 6 years do you think we purposely tanked?

3 years, then we tried to jump right into the playoffs in year 4, doused the roster in gasoline at the deadline, and then set it ablaze before year 5.

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magicblue    229
25 minutes ago, Magicman28 said:

How many of the last 6 years do you think we purposely tanked?

The anti-tankers apparently, or conveniently, forget that we legitimately and understandably sucked after the Dwight fiasco which leant itself to a complete rebuild. It's hilarious that they now poo-poo tanking when the alternative, of not sucking terribly, has lead us to exactly where we sit now. This is even more laughable considering our entire relevance as a franchise has hinged on #1 draft picks coming off of horrible seasons (sans 1993, Penny Hardaway).

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