GAMETHREAD: Birds @ Magic

[HeHateMe 697]

I don't know, at least we're somewhat competitive. This season's games are a lot easier to watch than the two seasons before it IMO.

 

Until a game like Denver happens than you begin to question everything that's happened the past 3 years.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Not to go all negative, but some of the excuses for this team need to stop. Yes, these guys are young but there will be no growth without accountability.

 

The last few minutes of last night's game were insanely sloppy, with turnover after turnover. Moreover, here are my additional takeaways:

 

• Love Easy's aggressiveness
• Love Vooch's offensive skill set
• Hate Vooch's charmin defense
• Hate Nicholson's charmin defense
• Dipo has an over-dribbling problem and sometimes an over-confidence problem
• Borrego is coaching challenged, including his rotations and playing times. How is Gordon only getting 10 minutes a game right now? To me it shows he's focused more on self-preservation than player development.
• Have a hard time believing Dipo and Harris can share the floor together
• Dedmon ain't the answer

I continue to believe this team needs a decent overhaul, beginning with a proven coach. I also don't see us having the guaranteed core pieces to build around like some of you see. I wish I did. I love the upside of Easy and Dipo, especially Easy. And I'm increasingly unsure Vooch is a championship caliber center. Great offense and terrible defense.

 

EDIT: Vooch is the 34th ranked center in WARP, while he's not even in the top 40 for centers in RPM. Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, Easy has the 12th best WARP for point guards.

 

 

Eh, RPM is a crappy statistic. It's the new PER.

 

See:

 

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2014/4/9/5591108/jae-crowder-problem-espn-real-plus-minus-rpm&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGeexBowMFgmVJ6Rg7FHbaNRLewEw&sig2=Jrf2hHOQIS8Sj-VYodGreg

 

and

 

http://www.hickory-high.com/is-espns-real-plus-minus-for-real/

 

Basically, it's issues is it's a two year stat, not something that reflects one season. Also, it's heavily influenced by rotation. Wade plays against starters. Calathes plays against bench units. They have similar RPMs.

 

 

It's worthless. It all literally means nothing, just like plus minus doesn't mean anything outside of a lineup's effectiveness in the context of a game.

 

Also, Gordon isn't playing more for the same reason Durant isn't playing more. Fear of foot issues

[Soul Bro 1,419]

Payton4thewin, "De Nile" ain't just a river!

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Payton4thewin, "De Nile" ain't just a river!

 

Hey, if you want to use a statistic that ranks Andre Roberson above Beal, wade, Oladipo, and Derozan or Cody Zeller above Durant then that's up to you.

[Soul Bro 1,419]

Hey, if you want to use a statistic that ranks Andre Roberson above Beal, wade, Oladipo, and Derozan or Cody Zeller above Durant then that's up to you.

Fair enough on RPM. Do you see the same with WARP? And more importantly, do you believe Easy, Dipo and Vooch are franchise cornerstones?

 

EDIT: You've also made the argument that Philly player stats are inflated because they're on a bad team. Might that be the same for some of our guys?

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Fair enough on RPM. Do you see the same with WARP? And more importantly, do you believe Easy, Dipo and Vooch are franchise cornerstones?

 

EDIT: You've also made the argument that Philly player stats are inflated because they're on a bad team. Might that be the same for some of our guys?

 

I think all broad efficiency based statistics in the nba are at some level problematic because of the nature of basketball. I think they work at high levels (I.e. Where a players season stands historically) and I think they work at low levels (why a player is bad) but I think they have a hard time dealing with bad players on good teams, players who have hollow stats, and good players on bad teams.

 

It's just an issue with how basketball is played vs baseball where things are more mechanical.

 

I believe we have three players to build around. I think each guy has at least one valuable skill that we can count on. My biggest fear is they're just taking advantage of passing on a bad team like Philly.

 

But we have to play the cards we're dealt.

 

If Payton's biggest issue is shooting, Oladipo's biggest issue is trying to do too much, and Vooch's biggest issue is defense then we need to find players to fill those gaps.

 

At sf we need a guy to hit threes and take some of the load off of Oladipo. At pf, we need to find a guy that can play defense without being a liability on offense and clogging the lane. It's a disservice to Vooch that he's always playing with Frye, oquinn, and Nicholson. Those guys make him look worse defensively and dedmon pushes him away from the basket for spacing.

 

We also need defensive guys off the bench. Ridnour, gordon, and Willie aren't cutting it.

 

Fill those gaps with guys to create a cohesive unit and we're ok.

[TrueMagicFan07 674]

Not to go all negative, but some of the excuses for this team need to stop. Yes, these guys are young but there will be no growth without accountability.

 

The last few minutes of last night's game were insanely sloppy, with turnover after turnover. Moreover, here are my additional takeaways:

 

• Love Easy's aggressiveness
• Love Vooch's offensive skill set
• Hate Vooch's charmin defense
• Hate Nicholson's charmin defense
• Dipo has an over-dribbling problem and sometimes an over-confidence problem
• Borrego is coaching challenged, including his rotations and playing times. How is Gordon only getting 10 minutes a game right now? To me it shows he's focused more on self-preservation than player development.
• Have a hard time believing Dipo and Harris can share the floor together
• Dedmon ain't the answer

I continue to believe this team needs a decent overhaul, beginning with a proven coach. I also don't see us having the guaranteed core pieces to build around like some of you see. I wish I did. I love the upside of Easy and Dipo, especially Easy. And I'm increasingly unsure Vooch is a championship caliber center. Great offense and terrible defense.

 

EDIT: Vooch is the 34th ranked center in WARP, while he's not even in the top 40 for centers in RPM. Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, Easy has the 12th best WARP for point guards.

 

Ahh, shucks!. . .I said I wasn't going to do any posting due to certain circumstances. But here we go. First of all, I agree with every thing you said Soul Bro.

 

I am sick and tired of Victor. Sure, he shows moments of brilliance, but in SOME ways he reminds me of Chris Duhon. (Yes, I said it!)

 

• He over dribbles.
   
  
• Time and time again he allows himself to get trapped in a corner by 3 defenders and when he tries to throw the ball out, he turns it over.
   
  
• There are times when he dribbles into the paint, he gets trapped, falls to the floor, and loses the ball.
   
  
• In the latter minutes of the 4th quarter, he tries to be the hero of the game and tries to do all of the scoring. He crashes the board or chucks up 3 pointers, missing the mark. He does not look for the open man.

 

The entire team have a problem in passing the ball out after a defensive rebound which should lead to a fast break by the Magic. They lazily throw the ball out and get picked off by the opponent. Vic and Luke were guilty of this in last nights game.

 

Lastly, the coach is having problems with his rotations. I am using NBA League Pass because I am away from my home in Florida. But I believe we were ahead by 6 to 8 points at the eight minute mark in the 4th quarter when League Pass froze on me, and I could not see the end of the game. Later, when I checked the box score I saw that we lost by 12 points. The coach uses some combinations of players on the floor that absolutely destroys our chances of winning the game. Therefore, when he puts the starters back in the fourth quarter, we start to have turnovers in bunches because they are trying to save the game.

 

I do not see Kyle, Andrew and Harkless in our future. . .not even next year. . .not even our next game. I just don't see what some of you are seeing.

 

Now, I'm not going on statistics. . . .I am using the "eye test".

 

BTW. . . I think the team does better (in half court) when they make quick passes around the floor to just about every player to find the open man. It spaces the floor and throws the opponent off. But when you have one player over dribbling, it is a recipe for disaster.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Ahh, shucks!. . .I said I wasn't going to do any posting due to certain circumstances. But here we go. First of all, I agree with every thing you said Soul Bro.

 

I am sick and tired of Victor. Sure, he shows moments of brilliance, but in SOME ways he reminds me of Chris Duhon. (Yes, I said it!)

 

• He over dribbles.
   
  
• Time and time again he allows himself to get trapped in a corner by 3 defenders and when he tries to throw the ball out, he turns it over.
   
  
• There are times when he dribbles into the paint, he gets trapped, falls to the floor, and loses the ball.
   
  
• In the latter minutes of the 4th quarter, he tries to be the hero of the game and tries to do all of the scoring. He crashes the board or chucks up 3 pointers, missing the mark. He does not look for the open man.

 

The entire team have a problem in passing the ball out after a defensive rebound which should lead to a fast break by the Magic. They lazily throw the ball out and get picked off by the opponent. Vic and Luke were guilty of this in last nights game.

 

Lastly, the coach is having problems with his rotations. I am using NBA League Pass because I am away from my home in Florida. But I believe we were ahead by 6 to 8 points at the eight minute mark in the 4th quarter when League Pass froze on me, and I could not see the end of the game. Later, when I checked the box score I saw that we lost by 12 points. The coach uses some combinations of players on the floor that absolutely destroys our chances of winning the game. Therefore, when he puts the starters back in the fourth quarter, we start to have turnovers in bunches because they are trying to save the game.

 

I do not see Kyle, Andrew and Harkless in our future. . .not even next year. . .not even our next game. I just don't see what some of you are seeing.

 

Now, I'm not going on statistics. . . .I am using the "eye test".

 

BTW. . . I think the team does better (in half court) when they make quick passes around the floor to just about every player to find the open man. It spaces the floor and throws the opponent off. But when you have one player over dribbling, it is a recipe for disaster.

 

He hasn't even finished his second year. Give Oladipo some time.

 

Agree on rotations

[Catman 380]

• Dipo has an over-dribbling problem and sometimes an over-confidence problem
• Borrego is coaching challenged, including his rotations and playing times. How is Gordon only getting 10 minutes a game right now? To me it shows he's focused more on self-preservation than player development.
• Have a hard time believing Dipo and Harris can share the floor together

I continue to believe this team needs a decent overhaul, beginning with a proven coach. I also don't see us having the guaranteed core pieces to build around like some of you see. I wish I did. I love the upside of Easy and Dipo, especially Easy. And I'm increasingly unsure Vooch is a championship caliber center. Great offense and terrible defense.

 

EDIT: Vooch is the 34th ranked center in WARP, while he's not even in the top 40 for centers in RPM. Meanwhile, on the other end of the spectrum, Easy has the 12th best WARP for point guards.

 

 

YES. Been saying some of this stuff for a while. I mentioned Victor being overconfident months ago and people acted like I slapped their Mom.

 

Let me add that T12 and Victor seriously need to stop dribbling the ball off their feet in pressure situations.

[O_SteveO 102]

Hopefully some of the irritating habits Vic has picked up are a result of us asking him to be THE MAN in our perimeter offense, which he will likely never be. If he gets some help (not Harris and his strictly iso offense and inconsistent shooting), I think he could be an elite second banana.

Victor is far better than he was projected to be at this point. Everyone on the board more or less accepted that we were getting a utility-type slasher/defender when he was drafted. Since then, he's been asked to run the point and become a go-to scorer to develop his overall game (two things he has never done before). I think long term he'll be fine, but he needs help.

[~O~ 565]

The more Oladipo develops, the more I see him as a second option. We should have picked up a first option out of the previous draft....it was the best time. Just our luck.

 

A first option would have been a two way small forward that was unstoppable....thus Wiggins/Parker. Maybe Gordon could become this? Tobias is what we wanted to be this. Its not going to happen. I see him as a 2nd to 4th option. That's about it.

 

Boy...that draft....set us back.

 

At least we got a high ceiling point guard and a sure defensive stopper.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Hopefully some of the irritating habits Vic has picked up are a result of us asking him to be THE MAN in our perimeter offense, which he will likely never be. If he gets some help (not Harris and his strictly iso offense and inconsistent shooting), I think he could be an elite second banana.

Victor is far better than he was projected to be at this point. Everyone on the board more or less accepted that we were getting a utility-type slasher/defender when he was drafted. Since then, he's been asked to run the point and become a go-to scorer to develop his overall game (two things he has never done before). I think long term he'll be fine, but he needs help.

 

So much this.

 

 

Nobody expects Victor to be the key piece leading the team to another championship. Due to roster construction he's forced to be the guy right now.

 

This is afflalo all over again.

 

Judge a guy based on what his expectations are. We can't keep moving the goal posts.

 

It's unreasonable to ask a guy to be our leading scorer, key isolation guy, best wing defender (until gordon can play a full game), best shooter, and expect him to do that efficiently in his second year when he's already overstepping his talent.

 

When you ask a bradley beal level player to be dwayne wade. You don't get to be mad when he's not dwyane wade.

 

It's like an SUV owner being mad that it doesn't get 40 miles per gallon.

 

It's like being mad that Payton doesn't hit threes.

 

What were you expecting?