The Rebuild is Working - Here is why

[magicblue 315]

I love Cousins. IMO, he is one of the best if not THE best C in the game right now. Very physical and can score in a multitude of ways.

 

If SAC said they would trade Cousins for Vuc, I would be stunned if somebody was opposed to that trade. It would never happen of course because Cousins is a complete stud.

 

Yes, I agree for Cousins right now you're absolutely right. However there's no guarantee Okafor is the next Cousins and even if he is 4 years from now is that worth 4 years of prime Vuc? I don't know, that's the question though.

[Catman 380]

Never played AAU ball. You got me on that but let me tell you, I worked my tail off. I worked with some great coaches. I had coaches teach me all the fundamentals. Square up with the toes, hips and elbows all in line. Focus on the back part of the rim, etc, etc. In fact, I worked hard on all aspects of my game and got pretty damn good. I won't get into a pissing match because the fact is, we are both sitting here on a message board. Not pros.

 

One thing I learned, you can never say player A will never be able to develop or improve on skill B. One reason I didn't go further into a basketball career was because I was more interested in how a player/person can develop and improve skills and athletic performance. I've researched this for the last 20+ years and continue to do so this day. In my experience, and this whole debate came from the lack of confidence and Dipo's shooting, is never say never. If Dipo, who seems to be intelligent and hard working, wants a more consistent shot, he will get it rather it's working on arc or something else. Same goes for Payton. Payton's issues are prep but also flat out mechanics.

 

AG as our leader? I don't know. It's all hindsight 20/20 bs. All of our talent is young. I know it's fun to predict but let's not predict the worse for a young talent, Oladipo. I firmly believe positive thinking produces positive results. Oladipo had a rough beginning to this year. Let's see what he does NOW JV wised up and put him at SG with Payton. Let's see how they develop.

 

The problem with your argument is you are arguing hope versus actual shooting technique. And while I am not one to dash dreams, I am simply going off of the knowledge of what is fixable and what is not. It is much harder to fix Victors shot than Elf's for the reasons I have outlined in this thread a few times now.

 

You are basically saying that Victor will get a better shot with gym time, but it appears that he has spent his gym time working on his exact same shot, and just making it a little more often then before. In other words, he has essentially ingrained the same habits even more.

 

If we had marksman all over the court, that would be ok. And if Vic could finish at the time at an elite level - like Dwaye Wade did his first year at SG, we would STILL be ok. But those things are not happening, and most likely will not ever happen at the consistency that defines an all-star elite talent.

 

That still does not mean I don't consider Victor to be a valuable asset who will either start or be a 6th man in the NBA.

[Magicman28 295]

Exactly.

 

It is cringey to read a guy challenge people's basketball knowledge and then say something like that. It doesn't add up or make sense.

 

It does make sense and I will always question those who have no control over others yet they predict what that person will become. Hard work can accomplish a lot.

[Catman 380]

Yes, I agree for Cousins right now you're absolutely right. However there's no guarantee Okafor is the next Cousins and even if he is 4 years from now is that worth 4 years of prime Vuc? I don't know, that's the question though.

 

Right. If there was a guarantee you would never be able to trade Nik for that pick.

 

So it boils down to scouting and if our scouts believe him to be better. I personally think our scouts are fantastic, and I trust their judgement.

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

Right. If there was a guarantee you would never be able to trade Nik for that pick.

 

So it boils down to scouting and if our scouts believe him to be better. I personally think our scouts are fantastic, and I trust their judgement.

 

Having O'Quinn as a very capable backup 4/5 makes the choice a bit easier to me. If The scouters truly believe that Okafor is an all world talent, go for it.

[Magicman28 295]

The problem with your argument is you are arguing hope versus actual shooting technique. And while I am not one to dash dreams, I am simply going off of the knowledge of what is fixable and what is not. It is much harder to fix Victors shot than Elf's for the reasons I have outlined in this thread a few times now.

 

You are basically saying that Victor will get a better shot with gym time, but it appears that he has spent his gym time working on his exact same shot, and just making it a little more often then before. In other words, he has essentially ingrained the same habits even more.

 

If we had marksman all over the court, that would be ok. And if Vic could finish at the time at an elite level - like Dwaye Wade did his first year at SG, we would STILL be ok. But those things are not happening, and most likely will not ever happen at the consistency that defines an all-star elite talent.

 

That still does not mean I don't consider Victor to be a valuable asset who will either start or be a 6th man in the NBA.

 

And this is where I question, not your intelligence, but your patience.

 

Last year, his arc was fine. It isn't Stephen Curry's arc but shooters like that, with such an high arc, are uncommon. Most high scorers, including Wade, lack that sort of arc.

 

As far as fixing it, of course more gym time helps. Improving a shot can't be successful without repetitiously practicing.

 

Here's where your getting ahead of yourself. Your judging Oladipo's ability to improve based on what he's done this year and we're not even at the half way point. Your saying hes spent time in the gym working on it yet you fail to acknowledge the injuries (which has in fact, taken Dipo away from the gym), the mask, and the conditioning. You may have played AAU ball, but have you played with a back to back injuries at the beginning of the season? Did you have to miss training camp and lose your conditioning to work to get it all back while being forced to play out of position wearing a plastic mask while playing for an inexperienced coach who's learning on the fly with a whole new team?

 

If you did, good for you. That's you. This is Dipo. If you didn't, then I suggest you practice more patience for our second year player before you start writing him off.

 

BTW, did your coaches tell you how if your conditioning's off, your shot will be very inconsistent? Know why? Because a jump shot starts with your legs. If your legs aren't into the shot, it's going to be a tough night. Vic not only had to rework on his conditioning, with a mask, he had to do it against smaller, faster, point guards.

[Catman 380]

No guy who doesn't have his legs will touch the ball 70 times a game. Hell, most players are happy with 50-55 touches a game.

 

If the injuries were currently a factor, he would not be playing this much. He's fine now. The mask is off. Everything is good.

 

When you say his arc is fine, I guess you are missing the point. Its more about his release which is a result of the overall shooting motion. It's very tough to fix. He can still be a great player for this team depending on the pieces around him.

 

As currently constructed, we do not have an elite player on the team. The best chance of getting one is AG developing, since he has otherworldly skills and showcased rapid improvement before injury. The second best is Elfrid who has also showcased incredible improvement over time.

 

This thread is more about how get that next elite guy and what position he will play. Could it be a C who is even better than Nik? a SG? Who knows. But my personal opinion is Oladipo has improved, but not at the rate of the elite talents that we are looking for. And I am keeping injury in mind. I just don't see him suddenly averaging 22 points a game in March, but trust me, I'd love to be wrong.

[CTMagicUK 1,491]

Wait so people think Victor, a 40% 3 point shooter in his last year of college and a guy who shoots 78% from the FT line in his nba career who is shooting 38% from 3 this year, has less chance of improving his shooting than Payton who was a career 27% 3 point shooter and 61% FT shooter in college?

 

I guess that's true when you consider Victor improving would make him a great shooter whereas Payton improving would make him a passable shooter.

[Magicman28 295]

No guy who doesn't have his legs will touch the ball 70 times a game. Hell, most players are happy with 50-55 touches a game.

 

If the injuries were currently a factor, he would not be playing this much. He's fine now. The mask is off. Everything is good.

 

When you say his arc is fine, I guess you are missing the point. Its more about his release which is a result of the overall shooting motion. It's very tough to fix. He can still be a great player for this team depending on the pieces around him.

 

As currently constructed, we do not have an elite player on the team. The best chance of getting one is AG developing, since he has otherworldly skills and showcased rapid improvement before injury. The second best is Elfrid who has also showcased incredible improvement over time.

 

This thread is more about how get that next elite guy and what position he will play. Could it be a C who is even better than Nik? a SG? Who knows. But my personal opinion is Oladipo has improved, but not at the rate of the elite talents that we are looking for. And I am keeping injury in mind. I just don't see him suddenly averaging 22 points a game in March, but trust me, I'd love to be wrong.

 

No player will touch the ball 70 times without legs?! Hell yeah he will! He will if your coach is JV and JV forces that player to dominate the ball handling duties and guess what? When that coach subs in a true pg, and that player continues to dominate the ball handling, that equals to more touches.

 

Oh and yeah, injury is healed but the lack of conditioning will take up to a month to regain. Everything is BETTER. The mask came off only two games ago. I'm excited to see how much better he gets here on out.

 

My personal opinion is your thread lacks any subjectivity. Your so blinded by finding that "elite" guy your about to give up on Dipo and move on to AG which will probably will lead to giving up on him and going on to the next guy in a year and a quarter, which is how long you gave Dipo. Injuries and all.

 

Question...Have you been conversing with Otis? You always seem to have an level head and I understand the fun in predicting and playing NBA2Kwhateveryear as a GM but your just straight up lacking any sort of patience.

[Magicman28 295]

Wait so people think Victor, a 40% 3 point shooter in his last year of college and a guy who shoots 78% from the FT line in his nba career who is shooting 38% from 3 this year, has less chance of improving his shooting than Payton who was a career 27% 3 point shooter and 61% FT shooter in college?

 

I guess that's true when you consider Victor improving would make him a great shooter whereas Payton improving would make him a passable shooter.

 

 

It's absurd. Cat is somewhat right, releasing and arcing is a lot more tedious than just simply moving an elbow more squared but still, to act the way some are, like Dipo is some moron who can't see the problem and won't work hard to at least improve as an scorer after a year a month or so, is asinine.

[The Neighborhood Bully 266]

Wait so people think Victor, a 40% 3 point shooter in his last year of college and a guy who shoots 78% from the FT line in his nba career who is shooting 38% from 3 this year, has less chance of improving his shooting than Payton who was a career 27% 3 point shooter and 61% FT shooter in college?

 

I guess that's true when you consider Victor improving would make him a great shooter whereas Payton improving would make him a passable shooter.

Common sense and logic have no place in this thread CTMagicUK.

[Catalina Maria 64]

Actually Payton initiates the offense the majority of the time. Victor does now and then, but Payton is doing the majority of that now.

 

Payton has already shown something in 3 months - he can improve. He has cut his turnovers down dramatically. This is what elite players show - quick improvement. Elf is going to become an elite PG at this rate as long as his shooting gets fixed. Since he has a fixable issue, I think it will happen.

 

The reason people believe Victor may not ever become a knock down shooter is because his motion is prone to shooting with less arc. That is tough to change. Elfrid's shot motion is actually good, it is the preparation that is screwing him. That is stuff you can fix.

 

Main point is that I agree - JV is force feeding Victor the ball too much and I think it has actually hampered his growth. He also thinks of himself as the team leader, and I believe that will be a problem. Harris and Gordon are more natural leaders and I think Victor will have a problem with that over time. That is why bringing in Ben Gordon was important. Ben has been through all this stuff and can mentor Victor on it.

 

Also, notice that Ben has quietly become a rather efficient player in his role off the bench. He can lead by example in that regard.

 

This! I love Dipo. I really do. But JV is trying to turn him into something he is not.