Howard has moved on, but have Magic fans done so as well?

[barnettej 263]

So, you really believe that those players wouldn't have had similar success if they had been drafted - or signed as a free agent in McGrady's case - by a different team?

 

Yes, because it can't be proven otherwise.

 

Post the numbers

 

We can play hypotheticals all day, but life is what is... I have always believed that players on other teams with other coaches would excel more. But it didn't happen. Dwight, Penny, Dennis, Anderson, Skiles, they all had their best best years in Orlando, Statically Shaq had better numbers in LA, so I was wrong and would give Phil and LA the nod.

 

Sorry for the late post

[Ibn Battuta 127]

Yes, because it can't be proven otherwise.

 

You're being dishonest. Your "proof" is circular: other players wouldn't have had success because they didn't play elsewhere, and because they didn't they would be unsuccessful. I could give you examples of other players playing on other teams and finding more success, but then you'd just retort back saying "I don't care about other teams, I only care Magic" as if that's a real reason to ignore facts.

 

Teams in the NBA are not immune to competitive pressure; every team is always looking to one up their opponents. If a certain style or technique is introduced and is wildly successful, you can bet over the course of a season or two (maybe faster now with all the technology we have) that instrument will be replicated by every NBA team. We don't have some secret sauce that other teams do or didn't have at the time. Anfernee Hardaway was a 4 time NBA all star, and twice all nba 1st team. Basically he was one of the best players in the league. That should tell you that on any team he could arguably be the best player. We didn't give him his size, speed, and athleticism. He spent 3 years at Memphis so you can't even say we "developed" him. In fact he came in and played extremely well, winning co-rookie of the year honors. Just because he didn't play on any other team doesn't mean he wouldn't have been as successful because "it didn't happen." That is the biggest load of crap i've read in a while. And if it weren't for his injuries slowing him down (greatly) we wouldn't even be mentioning him (of course, by your logic him slowing down was probably a byproduct of him leaving).

[Emory889 353]

Yes, because it can't be proven otherwise.

 

Post the numbers

 

We can play hypotheticals all day, but life is what is... I have always believed that players on other teams with other coaches would excel more. But it didn't happen. Dwight, Penny, Dennis, Anderson, Skiles, they all had their best best years in Orlando, Statically Shaq had better numbers in LA, so I was wrong and would give Phil and LA the nod.

 

Sorry for the late post

 

The responsibility for proof lies with the person making the outrageous claims. You are the one suggesting that players with extraordinary talent like Penny and Dwight wouldn't have reached their potential elsewhere (by the way, you aren't even saying they wouldn't be successful in certain NBA destinations. You are saying they would not be as good for ANY team other than the Magic. That's not just insane....its bats**t insane.). You haven't even explained who you believe is responsible for developing this talent. I would say you owe us more than proof. You owe us a name. I want to know who it was because if there is one person that is singularly responsible for practically every successful Magic player in history, I need to know it so that I can set up my shrine to them promptly.

 

Penny, Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott all the left the Magic when they were no longer in their primes. Of course their numbers weren't better once they left. Saying that they weren't the same players when they left Orlando is not the same thing as saying they would not have had similar success had they gone somewhere else to begin with. Nick played 10 seasons with the Magic before he left. Dennis Scott played 7. The average NBA career lasts 6 years. You don't need to be a math major to realize that both players were clearly declining when they left. And I'm hoping I don't have to explain to you that 2 micro-fracture surgeries on a knee in the mid-90s was not something that athletes were bouncing back from. Or that a degenerative back, in McGrady's case, is also something that typically ends careers. Then again, maybe I do have to explain to you how difficult it would be to maintain an athletic edge with a bad back since you are so quick to dismiss Howard's year in Los Angeles when he was clearly still recovering from back surgery. He's just now starting to get healthy and you can see the difference in his production. Even if you do want to ignore his back, you do have to pay attention to the ridiculously small sample size you are using to compare his Magic career with his post-Magic career. I'll wait for him to play a few more seasons before I determine that his best years were in Orlando, and even if his Orlando days were his best, I'm going attribute a lot of that to youth and him being healthy.

 

But getting back to McGrady, if you want to ignore his back, I could point out to you that young players, specifically players that came into the NBA out of high school, typically had a jump in production in their 3rd or 4th year....which was when McGrady joined the Magic. Kobe, KG, and even Dwight had similar spikes in production at the same point in their career. And there was the big jump in minutes that you already mentioned. So, we have a young, extremely talented player, starting his 4th year in the league, playing a ton of minutes, without any other real offensive options to shoulder the offensive burden with. Yeah, that sounds like a formula for a breakout season and it had absolutely NOTHING to do with someone on the Magic developing him.

 

Finally, before you do something stupid like point to Scott Skiles career years in Orlando as an example of him being developed here, do yourself a favor and consider the circumstances before you do so. He was a roleplayer taken in an expansion draft that had his minutes more than doubled. Of course his production increased. He was also already 25 years old when he joined the Magic. Most 25 year old players have already developed into the player that they are going to be.

 

But really, if you are going to insist that these players were all developed by the Magic and couldn't have been developed anywhere else, then you really need to tell us all who is responsible for it.....and probably explain to us why no one has heard of him until this point. Otherwise, there is no common connection holding this hair-brained theory of yours together.

[Optimist Prime 197]

We also need to consider the players who either didn't reach their full potential while on the Magic, or peaked after leaving. Mike Miller and Ben Wallace come to mind. Or, how about Vince Carter, who had a big drop off once he came over to the Magic? How do you account for Steve Francis? Need we even mention the curious case of Darko Milicic?

[barnettej 263]

The responsibility for proof lies with the person making the outrageous claims. You are the one suggesting that players with extraordinary talent like Penny and Dwight wouldn't have reached their potential elsewhere (by the way, you aren't even saying they wouldn't be successful in certain NBA destinations. You are saying they would not be as good for ANY team other than the Magic. That's not just insane....its bats**t insane.). You haven't even explained who you believe is responsible for developing this talent. I would say you owe us more than proof. You owe us a name. I want to know who it was because if there is one person that is singularly responsible for practically every successful Magic player in history, I need to know it so that I can set up my shrine to them promptly.

 

Penny, Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott all the left the Magic when they were no longer in their primes. Of course their numbers weren't better once they left. Saying that they weren't the same players when they left Orlando is not the same thing as saying they would not have had similar success had they gone somewhere else to begin with. Nick played 10 seasons with the Magic before he left. Dennis Scott played 7. The average NBA career lasts 6 years. You don't need to be a math major to realize that both players were clearly declining when they left. And I'm hoping I don't have to explain to you that 2 micro-fracture surgeries on a knee in the mid-90s was not something that athletes were bouncing back from. Or that a degenerative back, in McGrady's case, is also something that typically ends careers. Then again, maybe I do have to explain to you how difficult it would be to maintain an athletic edge with a bad back since you are so quick to dismiss Howard's year in Los Angeles when he was clearly still recovering from back surgery. He's just now starting to get healthy and you can see the difference in his production. Even if you do want to ignore his back, you do have to pay attention to the ridiculously small sample size you are using to compare his Magic career with his post-Magic career. I'll wait for him to play a few more seasons before I determine that his best years were in Orlando, and even if his Orlando days were his best, I'm going attribute a lot of that to youth and him being healthy.

 

But getting back to McGrady, if you want to ignore his back, I could point out to you that young players, specifically players that came into the NBA out of high school, typically had a jump in production in their 3rd or 4th year....which was when McGrady joined the Magic. Kobe, KG, and even Dwight had similar spikes in production at the same point in their career. And there was the big jump in minutes that you already mentioned. So, we have a young, extremely talented player, starting his 4th year in the league, playing a ton of minutes, without any other real offensive options to shoulder the offensive burden with. Yeah, that sounds like a formula for a breakout season and it had absolutely NOTHING to do with someone on the Magic developing him.

 

Finally, before you do something stupid like point to Scott Skiles career years in Orlando as an example of him being developed here, do yourself a favor and consider the circumstances before you do so. He was a roleplayer taken in an expansion draft that had his minutes more than doubled. Of course his production increased. He was also already 25 years old when he joined the Magic. Most 25 year old players have already developed into the player that they are going to be.

 

But really, if you are going to insist that these players were all developed by the Magic and couldn't have been developed anywhere else, then you really need to tell us all who is responsible for it.....and probably explain to us why no one has heard of him until this point. Otherwise, there is no common connection holding this hair-brained theory of yours together.

 

Again from my qoute:

 

I have always believed that players on other teams with other coaches would excel more.

 

Thats my view and has always been my view on sports, not just basketball. I have always looked at players and teams to see which one has all the right pieces to an ever changing puzzle. And then wonder about the talented players not doing so well on other teams.

 

Would I say that team jacked up a player by playing in the wrong system with the wrong coaches... Sure, but only if that player was able to breakout and out perform his previous team.

[Marc Acres 3:16 418]

So basically I make a statement that cannot be proved, then everyone else is wrong because they cannot disprove my ridiculous statement? Like Bob Hope is the greatest swordsman that ever lived, anyone who disagrees with me is wrong because you cannot disprove me.

 

What about if we use Miami as an example? Stan has nothing to do with Haslem's development, he does with Wade, but not with Beasley. The first two are good players while the 3rd is a lazy piece off crap. How did that happen? Did the city of Miami's magical potion wear off? Did it happen because I said so? Or is it the nanny nanny boo defense that you willbe using?

[barnettej 263]

We also need to consider the players who either didn't reach their full potential while on the Magic, or peaked after leaving. Mike Miller and Ben Wallace come to mind. Or, how about Vince Carter, who had a big drop off once he came over to the Magic? How do you account for Steve Francis? Need we even mention the curious case of Darko Milicic?

 

Exactly... Mike played better with the Griz.. Ben became Ben with the Pistons... Vince had his best years (I think) in Toronto.. Stevie it was Houston... Darko is a bust and has never reached same with Morrison.

 

Can teams have bad fits, yes. Does Magic always dev their talent, no. Sometimes it doesn't work out, right Fran Vasquez.

[barnettej 263]

So basically I make a statement that cannot be proved, then everyone else is wrong because they cannot disprove my ridiculous statement? Like Bob Hope is the greatest swordsman that ever lived, anyone who disagrees with me is wrong because you cannot disprove me.

 

What about if we use Miami as an example? Stan has nothing to do with Haslem's development, he does with Wade, but not with Beasley. The first two are good players while the 3rd is a lazy piece off crap. How did that happen? Did the city of Miami's magical potion wear off? Did it happen because I said so? Or is it the nanny nanny boo defense that you willbe using?

 

No I'm making a basic observation that can players do well in other places, and the facts to suggest that would be the output and how far that team made it.

 

So let's use your Miami example, Bease is just like Darko... Because he still hasn't panned out to what he was hyped up to be because of his "Talent". Now what happened. It's a two way street... You have to be coached, and you have to want to be coached. Beasley doesn't want to be coached.

 

Miami when they started with Wade, Has, Butler, etc they were a good young team. Then Pat started messing with the chemistry... Trading some of those players. Miami didn't do so well the following year, everyone blamed SVG. SVG took a break, Pat stepped in for a little... But Miami was still missing something... Pat signs Shaq, wade gets his first ring. Then Miami goes stale... Only until Lebron and Bosh and Miller.... Well the mini dream team was formed.

 

Now I have thought that Butler would of been more of a beast with Wade than Washington.... Oh yea. Just like I have always like the idea of Monta Ellis playing along side of Dwight, when that rumor was possible

[Captain Hi-Top 791]

Oh, the humanity!

[Marc Acres 3:16 418]

No I'm making a basic observation that can players do well in other places, and the facts to suggest that would be the output and how far that team made it.

 

So let's use your Miami example, Bease is just like Darko... Because he still hasn't panned out to what he was hyped up to be because of his "Talent". Now what happened. It's a two way street... You have to be coached, and you have to want to be coached. Beasley doesn't want to be coached.

 

Miami when they started with Wade, Has, Butler, etc they were a good young team. Then Pat started messing with the chemistry... Trading some of those players. Miami didn't do so well the following year, everyone blamed SVG. SVG took a break, Pat stepped in for a little... But Miami was still missing something... Pat signs Shaq, wade gets his first ring. Then Miami goes stale... Only until Lebron and Bosh and Miller.... Well the mini dream team was formed.

 

Now I have thought that Butler would of been more of a beast with Wade than Washington.... Oh yea. Just like I have always like the idea of Monta Ellis playing along side of Dwight, when that rumor was possible

 

Right, a 2 way street which would mean that the player contributes as much as the organization. This would also mean that the player, if put on a different organization would have just as good of a chance of reaching his potential unless that other organization was just really bad. The point you were arguing was that Orlando made Dwight, it's absurd to think that no other team would have drafted him based on potential and allowed him to develop by helping him harness his physical gifts and desire to improve. Orlando didn't make him.

[Miller4Prez66 545]

We also need to consider the players who either didn't reach their full potential while on the Magic, or peaked after leaving. Mike Miller and Ben Wallace come to mind. Or, how about Vince Carter, who had a big drop off once he came over to the Magic? How do you account for Steve Francis? Need we even mention the curious case of Darko Milicic?

 

We traded Mike Miller early in his career, and two of his more productive years scoring wise came in Orlando. Also, Vince Carter's dropoff came from age. He started dropping off before the end of his Nets tenure too. Darko had some of his more productive play in Orlando too, he had 2 bpg back in 2006. Steve Francis was just a jerk off.

 

Not that I'm agreeing with anyone's argument in this thread. But with the exception of Ben Wallace, I don't see any sort of botched development from the Magic with these guys. I think this franchise's track record with player development is decent, but their track record with management is awful.

[NittanyBuc 757]

We also need to consider the players who either didn't reach their full potential while on the Magic, or peaked after leaving. Mike Miller and Ben Wallace come to mind. Or, how about Vince Carter, who had a big drop off once he came over to the Magic? How do you account for Steve Francis? Need we even mention the curious case of Darko Milicic?

Varejao, though he never played a game in a Magic uniform