Is Gortat's post footwork, offense better than Dwight's?(link)

[Captain Hi-Top 791]

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

I'm drawing my basis off watching the drills they all go through before the game.

 

JJ looks amazing in drils as well. I think you are on to something.

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

So you're changing your position then? It's no longer "They're more refined on OFFENSE", it's that they're more refined as back to the basket, low post scorers. Because those are not synonymous.

 

I'm not changing my position at all. When I say more refined on Offense I'm talking about post players, since that is what this conversation is about. To me, post player's are players who get most of their points when they are back to the basket, posting up against there defender. You're using more refined on offense as a blanket term, and if it was being used that way then I'd say Kobe Bryant is the most offensive refined player in the league.

 

quote:

By the way: all those things you listed as "the way Dwight scores most of his points"? Those are all offensive skills. Sealing your man? Offensive skill. Offensive rebounding? Offensive skill. Dunking the ball in traffic, aka finishing at the basket? Offensive skill. Drawing fouls? HUGE offensive skill. Getting to the basket on the pick and roll effectively, even though everyone knows you're going to do it and still doing it effectively? VERY SIGNIFICANT OFFENSIVE SKILL.

 

I never listed sealing off your man as one of those things but yes he is very good at that. I rarely see anyone able to knock a pass away from Dwight when he posts up. All those other skills you mentioned though can be applied to any type of offensive player, wither it be a slashing perimeter player, a low post block player, or an offensive minded guard. But we are talking about offensive POST players and a different skill set.

 

quote:

You people. It's ridiculous. Dwight isn't a volume post scorer, and I never claimed he was. What I did say was that your assertion that Gortat is a better, more refined offensive player than Dwight was an offensively stupid one, which it is. All those things Dwight does to score against double teams are skills.

 

I never once said Gortat was a better offensive player then Dwight, in fact I refuted it several times. I only said that his offensive game is more refined and fundamental then Dwight's. Maybe I need to say "Offensive POST game" every time though and stop assuming every one knows what I'm talking about when I talk about "offensive game" when the topic of discussion is post players.

 

quote:

Also, I loved this:

Indeed! 40 point games are not the norm for Dwight!

 

Of course, if Dwight was consistently scoring 40ppg in this era, at this era's pace, he'd be the indisputable GOAT, and you're comparing him, using his not regularly scoring 40 points as a negative, to someone who used his totally radically awesome offensive skills to get outplayed and outscored by his counterpart on the Turkish National Team.

 

When have I said that Dwight should be scoring 40 point's regularly. I think what I said was that if Dwight develops a better, more refined, and fundamental game, we will simply see more big time scoring nights from him. Instead of now where he goes and does it and we are all shocked. Dwight's talent level gets him into the 20's but I believe (and so do many others) that once he really learns the game, he will be averaging points like Kobe and Lebron and will be a perenial candidate for MVP. Which I fully expect to happen.

 

Again DoM you continue to try and twist other peoples words to suit your own purpose. If Dwight was as good at his offensive moves as you are with twisting words, he would prolly average 60 points a night.

 

quote:

Lastly:

Ok then. 20 players with better post games than Dwight. I'd love to hear their names. Don't worry, I'll wait.

 

Fine I'll take that, only fair. Again these are post players with better more refined and fundamental post Games then Dwight Howard. This does not however mean I think they are BETTER offensive PLAYERS then Dwight Howard. I'm also not ranking them on who's the best just listing as they come to me.

 

1) Yao Ming

2) Tim Duncan

3) Amare Stoudemire

4) Shaquille O'neal

5) Dirk Nowitski

6) Al Jefferson

7) Kevin Garnett

8) David Lee

9) Chris Bosh

10) Zydrunis Illgauskis

11) Pau Gasol

12) Rasheed Wallace

13) David West

14) Lamarcus Aldrige

15) Carlos Boozer

16) Paul Milsap

17) Pau Gasol

18) Jermaine O'neal

19) Blake Griffin

20) Marcin Gortat

 

And there a bunch of other player's that if I looked at it I probably would say their offensive skills were on the level of Dwight's. Again, they are no where close to as Good of an Offensive player as him, they just have mastered that part of the game better.

[crisby pancakes 126]

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

I've been saying that Gortat's offensive game is more refined then Dwight's for a while now. Does that mean it's better? No. For God sakes no. Dwight can get 20 points a night just off talent and muscle alone. Gortat needs to put in his best effort to get to 20 points.

 

There's a difference between how refined someone's offensive game is and how good it is. Dwight's talent, athleticism, strength (and also pure volume of free throws he makes) make him a better offensive player then Gortat. But if Dwight was able to put his footwork, moves, jump shot, and ball security to the more fundamental level that Gortat has? Dwight will become completely ungaurdable.

 

To me that, along with the ability to make more free throws and pass out of double teams better, is the next step to go from a great player to a truly elite player, on the level of a D-Wade, LBJ, or Kobe. And I really think he is going to make that step.

First of all how many jumpshots did Gortat make in a game last year? I would say less than 10, so anyone saying Gortat is a good jump shooter is fooling themselves. Better footwork? Gortat scores all his points on putbacks and cutting to the rim, so tell me how he has showed any offensive footwork at all. Dwight can at least seal his man, has an average hook, and a pretty good baseline move,none of which Gortat really has. Ball security? Oh in his 10 mins per game against other teams bench warmers he showed that, meanwhile the guy who gets double like crazy who does a pretty good job there. He has room for improvement yes, but Gortat if doubled hard and game planned for would probably fall on his face. The only thing that Gortat might be slightly better at is that he is stronger in his base which enables him to be a pretty good post defender(maybe better than Dwight). Other than that saying an unproven European playing against scrubs in the Euroleague is better at anything than the best Center in the World is crazy.

 

Wow, when did Gortat start playing in the Euroleague this summer??

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

quote:

Originally posted by echo4papa:

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

I'm drawing my basis off watching the drills they all go through before the game.

 

JJ looks amazing in drils as well. I think you are on to something.

 

yes jj is also a very refined offensive player. but as mentioned earlier, this is the NBA where refinement and fundamentals cant carry you through a game. You need talent, strength, will and size, something that dwight has more than most every other post player in the league which is a big reason in why he is so good.

 

I simply am saying that dwight still has a much higher ceiling to reach. In fact if you look at all the young stars in this league right now, I would say dwight still has the most room to improve and grow upon. Which to me is amazing, because he is already so good.

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

You realize this is the NBA right? Everyone looks good in shoot around before games with no one guarding them. I have seen Dwight make 10 jumpshots in a row a bunch, but all year he probably didn't make 5 all of last year. It means nothing and their is a reason why Gortat plays 10 mins a game and less than that in actually meaningful minutes.

 

Dwight is the best help defender and shot blocker in the league. As far as post defense it is his weakest part of his defensive game, mainly because he is not as stong in his base. I have gone through this before but people don't grasp these concepts. Big broad shoulders does not equal good post defense. Your lower body is key, and Gortat is actually stronger in his base. Dwight is still a good post defender he is just not elite, but neither is Gortat. I was just making the point that if Gortat was better or as good in any aspect of the game that would be it.

 

The biggest reason why Gortat doesn't get more meaningful minutes is one reason and one reason only. And that is the best center in the league plays in front of him. Nothing else.

 

And as for your reasons why on Gortat possibly being better at post defense (I am focusing on that, not help defense) I would still disagree. Dwight has far better foot speed and stripping ability than gortat, which helps him against both the speedy and the strong post players in this league. Yes Gortat's base is stronger but I would count that as the only plus over Dwight in Post defense.

[VaBchMagicFan 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

So you're changing your position then? It's no longer "They're more refined on OFFENSE", it's that they're more refined as back to the basket, low post scorers. Because those are not synonymous.

 

I'm not changing my position at all. When I say more refined on Offense I'm talking about post players, since that is what this conversation is about. To me, post player's are players who get most of their points when they are back to the basket, posting up against there defender. You're using more refined on offense as a blanket term, and if it was being used that way then I'd say Kobe Bryant is the most offensive refined player in the league.

 

quote:

By the way: all those things you listed as "the way Dwight scores most of his points"? Those are all offensive skills. Sealing your man? Offensive skill. Offensive rebounding? Offensive skill. Dunking the ball in traffic, aka finishing at the basket? Offensive skill. Drawing fouls? HUGE offensive skill. Getting to the basket on the pick and roll effectively, even though everyone knows you're going to do it and still doing it effectively? VERY SIGNIFICANT OFFENSIVE SKILL.

 

I never listed sealing off your man as one of those things but yes he is very good at that. I rarely see anyone able to knock a pass away from Dwight when he posts up. All those other skills you mentioned though can be applied to any type of offensive player, wither it be a slashing perimeter player, a low post block player, or an offensive minded guard. But we are talking about offensive POST players and a different skill set.

 

quote:

You people. It's ridiculous. Dwight isn't a volume post scorer, and I never claimed he was. What I did say was that your assertion that Gortat is a better, more refined offensive player than Dwight was an offensively stupid one, which it is. All those things Dwight does to score against double teams are skills.

 

I never once said Gortat was a better offensive player then Dwight, in fact I refuted it several times. I only said that his offensive game is more refined and fundamental then Dwight's. Maybe I need to say "Offensive POST game" every time though and stop assuming every one knows what I'm talking about when I talk about "offensive game" when the topic of discussion is post players.

 

quote:

Also, I loved this:

Indeed! 40 point games are not the norm for Dwight!

 

Of course, if Dwight was consistently scoring 40ppg in this era, at this era's pace, he'd be the indisputable GOAT, and you're comparing him, using his not regularly scoring 40 points as a negative, to someone who used his totally radically awesome offensive skills to get outplayed and outscored by his counterpart on the Turkish National Team.

 

When have I said that Dwight should be scoring 40 point's regularly. I think what I said was that if Dwight develops a better, more refined, and fundamental game, we will simply see more big time scoring nights from him. Instead of now where he goes and does it and we are all shocked. Dwight's talent level gets him into the 20's but I believe (and so do many others) that once he really learns the game, he will be averaging points like Kobe and Lebron and will be a perenial candidate for MVP. Which I fully expect to happen.

 

Again DoM you continue to try and twist other peoples words to suit your own purpose. If Dwight was as good at his offensive moves as you are with twisting words, he would prolly average 60 points a night.

 

quote:

Lastly:

Ok then. 20 players with better post games than Dwight. I'd love to hear their names. Don't worry, I'll wait.

 

Fine I'll take that, only fair. Again these are post players with better more refined and fundamental post Games then Dwight Howard. This does not however mean I think they are BETTER offensive PLAYERS then Dwight Howard. I'm also not ranking them on who's the best just listing as they come to me.

 

1) Yao Ming

2) Tim Duncan

3) Amare Stoudemire

4) Shaquille O'neal

5) Dirk Nowitski

6) Al Jefferson

7) Kevin Garnett

8) David Lee

9) Chris Bosh

10) Zydrunis Illgauskis

11) Pau Gasol

12) Rasheed Wallace

13) David West

14) Lamarcus Aldrige

15) Carlos Boozer

16) Paul Milsap

17) Pau Gasol

18) Jermaine O'neal

19) Blake Griffin

20) Marcin Gortat

 

And there a bunch of other player's that if I looked at it I probably would say their offensive skills were on the level of Dwight's. Again, they are no where close to as Good of an Offensive player as him, they just have mastered that part of the game better.

That list is a joke right? Dirk is a better offensive player no doubt, but aren't we talking about post players? Blake Griffin?Millsap?J O'neal? Sheed Wallace? Lee? Gortat? I agree that Dwight has a ways to go offensively and I have no problem with like 10 guys on that list, but some are insane. A lot don't hardly ever play in the post either.

[VaBchMagicFan 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

You realize this is the NBA right? Everyone looks good in shoot around before games with no one guarding them. I have seen Dwight make 10 jumpshots in a row a bunch, but all year he probably didn't make 5 all of last year. It means nothing and their is a reason why Gortat plays 10 mins a game and less than that in actually meaningful minutes.

 

Dwight is the best help defender and shot blocker in the league. As far as post defense it is his weakest part of his defensive game, mainly because he is not as stong in his base. I have gone through this before but people don't grasp these concepts. Big broad shoulders does not equal good post defense. Your lower body is key, and Gortat is actually stronger in his base. Dwight is still a good post defender he is just not elite, but neither is Gortat. I was just making the point that if Gortat was better or as good in any aspect of the game that would be it.

 

The biggest reason why Gortat doesn't get more meaningful minutes is one reason and one reason only. And that is the best center in the league plays in front of him. Nothing else.

 

And as for your reasons why on Gortat possibly being better at post defense (I am focusing on that, not help defense) I would still disagree. Dwight has far better foot speed and stripping ability than gortat, which helps him against both the speedy and the strong post players in this league. Yes Gortat's base is stronger but I would count that as the only plus over Dwight in Post defense.

If Gortat was as good as you think offensively he would have seen a lot more minutes last year over Battie at the backup PF. That is the key, he essentially lost a lot of minutes to Batiie, who is a average NBA player now at best. That means every practice that you nor I were at the Magic coaching staff though Battie was a better offensive player, that tells me all I need to know.

[ball junkie 277]

All in the name of good coversation, gentleman...

 

Isn't it great that the Magic have not one, but two centers that are pretty doggone good...?

 

I, like the author like Gortat's footwork also.

 

Was not aware that his competition in the EuroLeague was weak as some of you have posted...thanks for the info.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

1) Yao Ming

2) Tim Duncan

3) Amare Stoudemire rarely plays the post.

4) Shaquille O'neal

5) Dirk Nowitski

6) Al Jefferson

7) Kevin Garnett You're stretching here, since KG plays primarily in the high post, but I guess I can let that go.

8) David Lee Seriously? Lee is AWFUL in the post.

9) Chris Bosh On what planet?

10) Zydrunis Illgauskis What was it that impressed you with Z's post game? His lefty hook, his lefty hook, or his lefty hook?

11) Pau Gasol

12) Rasheed Wallace

13) David West Seriously? You're going to talk about how much Dwight needs to be set up on pick and rolls, and you're going to include David West?

14) Lamarcus Aldrige

15) Carlos Boozer

16) Paul Milsap Are you kidding me?

17) Pau Gasol

18) Jermaine O'neal

19) Blake Griffin Yeah, Blake Griffin looked great facing single coverage against University of Idaho at Nowhere.

20) Marcin Gortat Just no.

 

And there a bunch of other player's that if I looked at it I probably would say their offensive skills were on the level of Dwight's. Again, they are no where close to as Good of an Offensive player as him, they just have mastered that part of the game better.

 

Lets try this, my sad sad friend: What post skills does Gortat have that you don't think Dwight does?

 

He's clearly not better at sealing his man, in the halfcourt or in transition. He's not a better passer or offensive rebounder. He draws fouls at a significantly lower rate. He draws less defensive attention. He has worse footspeed, and despite this retarded article, noticeably worse footwork. He has noticeably fewer post moves in his repertoire. So what is it?

 

He has better touch? That's it? That makes him better overall? What is it about Marcin Gortat's post game that makes his better than Dwight's?

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Christ, I didn't even notice Dirk(rarely plays the low post) or Aldridge(NEVER plays in the low post). Goodness.

[t1meband1t 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Live or Die Magic:

One thing I will say right now with no qualms: I think that Gortat has better hands (right now) than Howard.

 

agreed...he does several things better than Dwight at this time but will never posess Dwight's athleticism. Hopefully Dwight will continue to improve. Jordon got better every year. You have to love it!

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

Lets try this, my sad sad friend: What post skills does Gortat have that you don't think Dwight does?

 

He's clearly not better at sealing his man, in the halfcourt or in transition. He's not a better passer or offensive rebounder. He draws fouls at a significantly lower rate. He draws less defensive attention. He has worse footspeed, and despite this retarded article, noticeably worse footwork. He has noticeably fewer post moves in his repertoire. So what is it?

 

He has better touch? That's it? That makes him better overall? What is it about Marcin Gortat's post game that makes his better than Dwight's?

 

His footwork is better, I wince every time I see Dwight hop around like a bunny when he gets into a crowded lane, and It's the one thing I think he significantly gets a pass on from refs.

 

He has a better hook shot, a better up and under move. He has far better hands to catch a low pass. His post moves are limited but then again so is Dwight's, who's only post move is that running to the middle post hook that was painful to watch when he played Boston and Los Angeles.

 

Oh yeas and of course. He has better touch.

 

And as for "Drawing" Fouls? Dwight does not "Draw" fouls. Dwayne Wade draws fouls. Kobe draws fouls. Paul Pierce (****it I wanted to go a whole year without saying something good about him) draws fouls. Yao Ming draws fouls.

 

Dwight "Gets" fouled. Even though he's trying to avoid it. There is a gigantic difference. Players want to foul Dwight. They want to put him on the line. Drawing fouls would be baiting your opponent into fouling you. Rather than being a target to get fouled.