Is Gortat's post footwork, offense better than Dwight's?(link)

[Live or Die Magic 383]

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

This is a joke, anyone who thinks Gortat is better in any aspect of basketball is kidding themselves.

 

He has a better basketball tattoo....how 'bout that?

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

I've been saying that Gortat's offensive game is more refined then Dwight's for a while now. Does that mean it's better? No. For God sakes no. Dwight can get 20 points a night just off talent and muscle alone. Gortat needs to put in his best effort to get to 20 points.

 

There's a difference between how refined someone's offensive game is and how good it is. Dwight's talent, athleticism, strength (and also pure volume of free throws he makes) make him a better offensive player then Gortat. But if Dwight was able to put his footwork, moves, jump shot, and ball security to the more fundamental level that Gortat has? Dwight will become completely ungaurdable.

 

To me that, along with the ability to make more free throws and pass out of double teams better, is the next step to go from a great player to a truly elite player, on the level of a D-Wade, LBJ, or Kobe. And I really think he is going to make that step.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

There's a difference between how refined someone's offensive game is and how good it is. Dwight's talent, athleticism, strength (and also pure volume of free throws he makes) make him a better offensive player then Gortat. But if Dwight was able to put his footwork, moves, jump shot, and ball security to the mote fundamental level that Gortat has? Dwight will become completely ungaurdable.

 

You couldn't be anymore wrong here without saying something insane, like that Dwight was actually a manatee.

 

Put Gortat in Dwight's position where he has to create for himself consistently against double teams, and Gortat averages about 10 points a game AT MOST.

 

When I am king, people who assume that "refined offensive skills" strictly means "can hit a jumpshot from 14'" will be banned from watching basketball.

[Captain Hi-Top 791]

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

You couldn't be anymore wrong here without saying something insane, like that Dwight was actually a manatee.

[VaBchMagicFan 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Live or Die Magic:

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

This is a joke, anyone who thinks Gortat is better in any aspect of basketball is kidding themselves.

 

He has a better basketball tattoo....how 'bout that?

Okay I give you that

[VaBchMagicFan 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

I've been saying that Gortat's offensive game is more refined then Dwight's for a while now. Does that mean it's better? No. For God sakes no. Dwight can get 20 points a night just off talent and muscle alone. Gortat needs to put in his best effort to get to 20 points.

 

There's a difference between how refined someone's offensive game is and how good it is. Dwight's talent, athleticism, strength (and also pure volume of free throws he makes) make him a better offensive player then Gortat. But if Dwight was able to put his footwork, moves, jump shot, and ball security to the more fundamental level that Gortat has? Dwight will become completely ungaurdable.

 

To me that, along with the ability to make more free throws and pass out of double teams better, is the next step to go from a great player to a truly elite player, on the level of a D-Wade, LBJ, or Kobe. And I really think he is going to make that step.

First of all how many jumpshots did Gortat make in a game last year? I would say less than 10, so anyone saying Gortat is a good jump shooter is fooling themselves. Better footwork? Gortat scores all his points on putbacks and cutting to the rim, so tell me how he has showed any offensive footwork at all. Dwight can at least seal his man, has an average hook, and a pretty good baseline move,none of which Gortat really has. Ball security? Oh in his 10 mins per game against other teams bench warmers he showed that, meanwhile the guy who gets double like crazy who does a pretty good job there. He has room for improvement yes, but Gortat if doubled hard and game planned for would probably fall on his face. The only thing that Gortat might be slightly better at is that he is stronger in his base which enables him to be a pretty good post defender(maybe better than Dwight). Other than that saying an unproven European playing against scrubs in the Euroleague is better at anything than the best Center in the World is crazy.

[lemanyak 0]

You're comparing Gortat with Howard?Are U kidding me ??He's not nearly good like Howard.Inthe game against Turkey his opponent player has made 22 points in just 22 minutes.He scored 21 points because all the other polnish players were s...

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

You couldn't be anymore wrong here without saying something insane, like that Dwight was actually a manatee.

 

Put Gortat in Dwight's position where he has to create for himself consistently against double teams, and Gortat averages about 10 points a game AT MOST.

 

When I am king, people who assume that "refined offensive skills" strictly means "can hit a jumpshot from 14'" will be banned from watching basketball.

 

Your arrogance is the size of a manatee DoM. When you become king we are all going to get to see a replay of the French Revolution and you will be playing the part of Louis XVI.

 

I don't remember saying "refined offensive skills" strictly meant "can hit a jumpshot from 14" maybe you need to clean your computer screen up so you can read a little better.

 

Dwight's got some offensive skills yes. And he has certainly improved upon them big time. But when it comes to ranking his offensive game and skills (which means a heck of a lot more then just a jumpshot) I can come up with at least 10 players right off the top of my head who have better offensive post skills then him. And I bet I could find another 5-10 if I spent some time looking for them.

 

Does this mean they are better offensive players then Dwight? Hell no. It just means that they have perfected and mastered the art of scoring from the low block. Dwight has not. Most of his points come from put back dunks, alley oops, second chance rebounds, pic and roll passes, and volume free throw shooting. That is a FACT.

 

He only has his huge scoring games (30-40 points, which are rare, not the norm for him) when he has that little floater hook shot of his going, or when his free throw shot is on. But when everyone asks what is Dwight's biggest weakness, three things come up, Bad free throws, gets stripped to easily, and no solid go to moves in the post. Now this doesn't really affect him to badly because his talent, strength, and will to win carry him through. But it is a weakness none the less.

 

Would Gortat struggle to score if he got thrown constant double teams like Dwight does? Yes. But when has Gortat ever had the offense run through him. When has he ever had the same chance to play Dwight like minutes for an extended amount of games. Trust me if he did, he'd average at least 14 pts a game. Why? Because he has a good set of offensive skills and moves that give him a nice little fundamental post game.

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

quote:

Originally posted by lemanyak:

You're comparing Gortat with Howard?Are U kidding me ??He's not nearly good like Howard.Inthe game against Turkey his opponent player has made 22 points in just 22 minutes.He scored 21 points because all the other polnish players were s...

 

Again never said he was better than howard. I just said he's more fundamentaly sound than Howard when it comes to his offensive game. Howard is a better player than he is by a long shot.

[Ryan the Magic Fan 253]

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

First of all how many jumpshots did Gortat make in a game last year? I would say less than 10, so anyone saying Gortat is a good jump shooter is fooling themselves. Better footwork? Gortat scores all his points on putbacks and cutting to the rim, so tell me how he has showed any offensive footwork at all. Dwight can at least seal his man, has an average hook, and a pretty good baseline move,none of which Gortat really has. Ball security? Oh in his 10 mins per game against other teams bench warmers he showed that, meanwhile the guy who gets double like crazy who does a pretty good job there. He has room for improvement yes, but Gortat if doubled hard and game planned for would probably fall on his face. The only thing that Gortat might be slightly better at is that he is stronger in his base which enables him to be a pretty good post defender(maybe better than Dwight). Other than that saying an unproven European playing against scrubs in the Euroleague is better at anything than the best Center in the World is crazy.

 

How many chances has gortat had to do that. This right now is the first time the offense has ever really been run through him. I'm drawing my basis off watching the drills they all go through before the game. If you were there you will see that Gortat's game is actually very polished.

 

Now as for Gortat maybe being a better post defender then Dwight? Now THAT is crazy.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

Does this mean they are better offensive players then Dwight? Hell no. It just means that they have perfected and mastered the art of scoring from the low block. Dwight has not. Most of his points come from put back dunks, alley oops, second chance rebounds, pic and roll passes, and volume free throw shooting. That is a FACT.

 

So you're changing your position then? It's no longer "They're more refined on OFFENSE", it's that they're more refined as back to the basket, low post scorers. Because those are not synonymous.

 

By the way: all those things you listed as "the way Dwight scores most of his points"? Those are all offensive skills. Sealing your man? Offensive skill. Offensive rebounding? Offensive skill. Dunking the ball in traffic, aka finishing at the basket? Offensive skill. Drawing fouls? HUGE offensive skill. Getting to the basket on the pick and roll effectively, even though everyone knows you're going to do it and still doing it effectively? VERY SIGNIFICANT OFFENSIVE SKILL.

 

You people. It's ridiculous. Dwight isn't a volume post scorer, and I never claimed he was. What I did say was that your assertion that Gortat is a better, more refined offensive player than Dwight was an offensively stupid one, which it is. All those things Dwight does to score against double teams are skills.

 

Also, I loved this:

quote:

He only has his huge scoring games (30-40 points, which are rare, not the norm for him)

 

Indeed! 40 point games are not the norm for Dwight!

 

Of course, if Dwight was consistently scoring 40ppg in this era, at this era's pace, he'd be the indisputable GOAT, and you're comparing him, using his not regularly scoring 40 points as a negative, to someone who used his totally radically awesome offensive skills to get outplayed and outscored by his counterpart on the Turkish National Team.

 

Also:

quote:

Would Gortat struggle to score if he got thrown constant double teams like Dwight does? Yes. But when has Gortat ever had the offense run through him. When has he ever had the same chance to play Dwight like minutes for an extended amount of games. Trust me if he did, he'd average at least 14 pts a game. Why? Because he has a good set of offensive skills and moves that give him a nice little fundamental post game.

 

Quite possibly. Gortat is a very decent center. He'd make a great 3rd option on a good team. But you're comparing him to a legit 1st option on a fantastic team. The difference matters. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges. Let Gortat face the defenses Dwight does, he likely averages more turnovers than made field goals. Put Dwight against the kind of defenses Gortat would face as the 3rd option on a good team, and Dwight is averaging 30ppg.

 

Lastly:

quote:

I can come up with at least 10 players right off the top of my head who have better offensive post skills then him. And I bet I could find another 5-10 if I spent some time looking for them.

 

Ok then. 20 players with better post games than Dwight. I'd love to hear their names. Don't worry, I'll wait.

[VaBchMagicFan 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Ramsde68:

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

First of all how many jumpshots did Gortat make in a game last year? I would say less than 10, so anyone saying Gortat is a good jump shooter is fooling themselves. Better footwork? Gortat scores all his points on putbacks and cutting to the rim, so tell me how he has showed any offensive footwork at all. Dwight can at least seal his man, has an average hook, and a pretty good baseline move,none of which Gortat really has. Ball security? Oh in his 10 mins per game against other teams bench warmers he showed that, meanwhile the guy who gets double like crazy who does a pretty good job there. He has room for improvement yes, but Gortat if doubled hard and game planned for would probably fall on his face. The only thing that Gortat might be slightly better at is that he is stronger in his base which enables him to be a pretty good post defender(maybe better than Dwight). Other than that saying an unproven European playing against scrubs in the Euroleague is better at anything than the best Center in the World is crazy.

 

How many chances has gortat had to do that. This right now is the first time the offense has ever really been run through him. I'm drawing my basis off watching the drills they all go through before the game. If you were there you will see that Gortat's game is actually very polished.

 

Now as for Gortat maybe being a better post defender then Dwight? Now THAT is crazy.

You realize this is the NBA right? Everyone looks good in shoot around before games with no one guarding them. I have seen Dwight make 10 jumpshots in a row a bunch, but all year he probably didn't make 5 all of last year. It means nothing and their is a reason why Gortat plays 10 mins a game and less than that in actually meaningful minutes.

 

Dwight is the best help defender and shot blocker in the league. As far as post defense it is his weakest part of his defensive game, mainly because he is not as stong in his base. I have gone through this before but people don't grasp these concepts. Big broad shoulders does not equal good post defense. Your lower body is key, and Gortat is actually stronger in his base. Dwight is still a good post defender he is just not elite, but neither is Gortat. I was just making the point that if Gortat was better or as good in any aspect of the game that would be it.