some salt in the Courtney Lee wound...

[SmackDaddy 30]

Anybody care to speculate what our team looks like right now had Otis not made the VC trade?

[F1ash 0]

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

C-Lee one good playoff run? For a rookie to play that well in his first playoffs is more impressive than Roy doing it on a 30 win team.

 

Clarification:

 

CLee had one good playoff series.

 

In the Philly series when matched up against Willie Green, CLee averaged 12.6ppg. However, against BOS he averaged 6.2ppg, against CLE he averaged 7.7ppg, and against LA he averaged 5.8ppg.

 

For the entire playoffs, he averaged 8ppg in 26mpg on 43% shooting and was 27% from behind the arc.

 

Hell, JJ Redick played as well during the playoffs in 20mpg. You don't hear anybody other than PEC and 135bpm cheering about how the playoffs was JJ's glorious coming out party.

He struggled through a lot of the playoffs, yes well he was a rookie. He still shot 43% which by the way is what VC shot in the regular season and Lee shot 45 % in the reg season which is higher than VC. Now you are bashing a guy who struggled in the playoffs asa rookie? I can go look at dwight in both the Boston and the LA series and it can be seen that our best player did not show up. You can say what you want but Lee will have a breakout year next year and most likely put up better numbers or equal to VC. For 12 million less and 6 years younger.

 

LMAO! Again you're comparing ridiculous stats. VC has always been double teamed or triple teamed throughout his career, so his percentages are bound to be not as good as a player that takes WIDE OPEN shots on a great team. So is CLee better than Kobe and DWade because he shot a better FG%?

 

Again, I repeat CLee IS NOT A SUPERSTAR IN THE MAKING, NOR IS HE AN ALL-STAR! He is a very good role player, and that's about it. His ceiling in this league will be Michael Pietrus, and even that's pushing it.

 

Let me guess, you wouldn't trade CLee for Kobe either, right?

[You're Fat, Pat! 98]

Lee will drive into the paint, get hit hard by some big man, and be injured, causing him to miss a TON of time, if not the remainder of the season.

 

Book it.

 

 

I'm not wishing it on him, I can just see it happening, therefore, I am predicting it.

[F1ash 0]

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

quote:

Originally posted by F1ash:

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

Good article, made the correct point that courtney did everything right, had a positive attitude, and worked hard. He maxed out his production as much as he could...its hard to ask for much more from a player. But, you guys are crazy for thinking he is a star, much less allstar. There are atleast 10-12 sgs that are better than him in this conference alone. He is nothing more than a solid rotational player. That will become evident this season when he will be the 3rd option on a bad team as opposed to the 5th/6th option on a good team. His %'s are going to go down across the board, and he will spend less time concentrating on his D for his offense. Lets be real.

 

I think you under value Lee, his Basketball IQ is very high along with his work ethic. The guy can create his own shot when given the opportunity and will only get better. On a bad team he can easily average 20-22ppg. I compare him to Brandon Roy,not quite as good offensively but much better defensively.

 

I don't think he will be an all-star this year, but in the coming years I think he will. Thats why I didn't like this deal, C-lee has tons of upside and VC will only get worse. Not to mention VC makes like 12 million dollars a year more and I have said this before C-Lee and Vc's numbers will not be that different. IMO VC is still the 4th option on this team and I'm not sure how he will fit in that role. If C-Lee was drafted by a bad team he would have easily averaged 15ppg, and been in discussion for ROY.

 

Just to show you Lees and Roy's FG % for their rookie year is identical, Roy just shot 9 more shots a game. Jump shot ratio and Inside ratio is also identical as well, so is free throw %. Throw that in with the fact that Lee is a better perimeter and team defender. I could be wrong about this, but if I'm not than everyone will regret this deal.

 

 

Are you for real? Comparing CLee to Roy is a slap in the face for Brandon Roy. Comparing rookie stats is ridiculous. Courtney Lee got wide open shot afer wide open shot because he was the 5th option, whereas Roy had the primary ball handling duties with Portland, and always had his shots contested. Also, how can VC be the 4th option on this team? Are you on drugs? He's going to be the primary ball handler during crunch time, and will be the #1 option in the closing minutes.

 

Seriously, all you CLee homers are ridiculous. CLee won't be an all-star. Ever. One good playoff run, on a great team as the 5th option, and the dude is a budding All-Star? Give me a break! If that's the case, Ryan Anderson is going to be an MVP in a couple years.

VC will be the primary ball handler in the clutch? Doubt it, first of all Meer and Shard have been great in that role, second of all this team is going to start shifting to Dwight having the ball in the clutch. Meer,Dwight and Shard will get more shot attempts per game than VC.

 

C-Lee one good playoff run? How do you compare it as a fluke/ Oh you mean compared to all his other playoff runs, give me a break the guy was a rookie. I like how people are all high on Brandon Roy now but in the draft a lot of people thought it was a bad pick. Clee proved that when given the chance he can take his man to the basket and get his own shot, he had limited opportunities. For a rookie to play that well in his first playoffs is more impressive than Roy doing it on a 30 win team. Roy had no pressure and Lee had more reponsibility on a winning team. Roy can't guard the other teams best player either.

 

LOL at Meer and Shard getting more shot attempts than VC (I do agree that D12 should be getting the most FGA on this team), and handling the ball during crunch time. Why do you think they got VC? To play spot up three point shooter?

 

The Magic have never had a go to scorer that can create his own shot, which is why VC is here. I'm not saying VC is here to score 30 points a game, but he's here to make the game easier for D12, Shard, and Nelson, by taking pressure off them with just his mere presence in the offense. And if you don't think that VC will be handling the ball during crunch time, you must have forgotten that Hedo was the primary ball handler in the closing minutes because Rashard doesn't have good enough handles. Also, there is NO center in the league that HANDLES the ball during crunch time. VC will be driving to the rim, and if Dwight is open, VC will dump the ball to him for a layup or dunk, and if he's not, he'll either take a shot, or pass it to an open Rashard or Jameer.

 

The beauty of this trade, is that it made the Magic unguardable. CLee can't do this for the Magic, and never will be. And please don' say CLee is an awesome defender because the presence of Dwight in the middle makes the entire team's defense superior.

[Captain Hi-Top 791]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

Anybody care to speculate what our team looks like right now had Otis not made the VC trade?

 

Nelson/Watson/AJ

Lee/Pietrus

Hedo/Barnes

Lewis/Bass/Battie

Howard/Gortat

 

I threw Watson in, thinking that paying less int he short term for Hedo vs. VC that Otis might have tossed a little more incintive into the fire to swing him our way, but it would probably still be Williams instead.

 

I really think the only major difference between this, and what we actually have now is that the 5th option on offense moves from the SG position to the SF position, and will still be tasked with a major defensive assignment every game.

 

Of course, the responsibilities Hedo held at the SF position move to the SG position with Carter. You keep the same philosophy, the same basic game plan, you are just shifting the roles of two positions to accomodate personnel.

 

I happen to like Carter over Hedo, but I might also go with Lee over Barnes. However, Barnes can still be a decent defender, and Carter can be a much better defender than Hedo, he just needs to put that mental effort in. I think he won't have much of a problem in that department being on a team that is contending for a title.

[Murphy13 185]

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

Good article, made the correct point that courtney did everything right, had a positive attitude, and worked hard. He maxed out his production as much as he could...its hard to ask for much more from a player. But, you guys are crazy for thinking he is a star, much less allstar. There are atleast 10-12 sgs that are better than him in this conference alone. He is nothing more than a solid rotational player. That will become evident this season when he will be the 3rd option on a bad team as opposed to the 5th/6th option on a good team. His %'s are going to go down across the board, and he will spend less time concentrating on his D for his offense. Lets be real.

 

I think you under value Lee, his Basketball IQ is very high along with his work ethic. The guy can create his own shot when given the opportunity and will only get better. On a bad team he can easily average 20-22ppg. I compare him to Brandon Roy,not quite as good offensively but much better defensively.

 

I don't think he will be an all-star this year, but in the coming years I think he will. Thats why I didn't like this deal, C-lee has tons of upside and VC will only get worse. Not to mention VC makes like 12 million dollars a year more and I have said this before C-Lee and Vc's numbers will not be that different. IMO VC is still the 4th option on this team and I'm not sure how he will fit in that role. If C-Lee was drafted by a bad team he would have easily averaged 15ppg, and been in discussion for ROY.

 

Just to show you Lees and Roy's FG % for their rookie year is identical, Roy just shot 9 more shots a game. Jump shot ratio and Inside ratio is also identical as well, so is free throw %. Throw that in with the fact that Lee is a better perimeter and team defender. I could be wrong about this, but if I'm not than everyone will regret this deal.

 

I believe you over value him much more than I under value him. First of all, he does have a good work ethic thus far. However, I disagree with you bball IQ comment as I never saw it with the Magic, high IQ gets thrown around a lot, but few players actually possess it. Lee is not one of those players. He is a slightly above average one on one defender, and a below average team defender. And he is no lockdown defender unless he is trying to guard someone 6'4" or shorter.

 

I also never saw him create his own shot-or shots for others by the way. He was a sit-in-the-corner-and-wait-for-the-pass type. in order for lee to average 22ppg he would have to nearly triple his output while experiencing zero decline of efficiency. That is going to take an absurd number of shot attempts that wont be available unless he is #1 option on offense...which he wont be. Lee was a 4 year college player that played decently his rookie season. Thats the reality, his ceiling is limited, get used to it. If VC is the 4th option, who is the third? jameer? god help us.

 

You are entitled to your beliefs about Roy and Lee. But, I see zero correlation between the two.

 

And finally, someone else mentioned this already, but I just wanted to throw out there again that in the playoffs Lee average +2ppg, less apg, and the same rpg in 6 more minutes per game than JJ Redick. To say Lee is star quality is like saying that Redick is too, since they had about equal production. And who here really thinks that if Redick played 6 more minutes every game he wouldnt have hit atleast 1 more 3, got one more dime, or another rebound? all of which would have tipped the scales. The fact that its that close of a call between the two suggests that either Redick is a future star, or both are merely solid rotational players. Which side of the fence sounds more likely?

[UBBALLER8 248]

I'm going to miss C-Lee too.

 

I wish it was JJ we sent to NJ instead of him.

[jmmagicfan 302]

quote:

Originally posted by echo4papa:

 

Nelson/Watson/AJ

Lee/Pietrus

Hedo/Barnes

Lewis/Bass/Battie

Howard/Gortat

 

I threw Watson in, thinking that paying less int he short term for Hedo vs. VC that Otis might have tossed a little more incintive into the fire to swing him our way, but it would probably still be Williams instead.

 

I really think the only major difference between this, and what we actually have now is that the 5th option on offense moves from the SG position to the SF position, and will still be tasked with a major defensive assignment every game.

 

Of course, the responsibilities Hedo held at the SF position move to the SG position with Carter. You keep the same philosophy, the same basic game plan, you are just shifting the roles of two positions to accomodate personnel.

 

I happen to like Carter over Hedo, but I might also go with Lee over Barnes. However, Barnes can still be a decent defender, and Carter can be a much better defender than Hedo, he just needs to put that mental effort in. I think he won't have much of a problem in that department being on a team that is contending for a title.

I don't think Otis would have paid Hedo $10M+ per season for 5 years, regardless of whether the trade happened or not. I think this is the more likely scenario.

 

Nelson/Watson/AJ

Lee/Pietrus/Reddick

Shard/Barnes

Bass/Battie

Howard/Gortat

 

Alston would probably have still been traded - possibly for another SF. Maybe Otis could have pulled off a great deal for Travis Outlaw, but the Blazers haven't made a whole lot of those types of trades lately, and I don't think they would have pulled the trigger on that, since they didn't get the SF they wanted (Hedo). The free agent market was actually quite thin at SF, so the best we might have been able to do was do the sign and trade with Toronto, and get Marion back. Even that would have been difficult with the BYC rules. Consider also, about the best SF available for under $8M this summer was . . . Grant Hill.

[VinceCarter4life 69]

I'm going to miss C Lee the role player.

He had a good rookie year..so did Ryan Anderson.

 

So did Vince Carter. I'm pretty sure he won something for it...o yeah Rookie of the Year.

 

Nelson/Watson/AJ

Lee/Pietrus/Reddick

Shard/Barnes

Bass/Battie

Howard/Gortat

 

vs

 

Nelson/J Will/AJ

Carter/Pietrus

Shard/Barnes

Bass/Anderson

Dwight/Gortat

[Mr Charisma 0]

quote:

Originally posted by UBBALLER8:

I'm going to miss C-Lee too.

 

I wish it was JJ we sent to NJ instead of him.

LOL. If that is what we had offered, VC would not be a Magician.

 

Might work on PS2 though, if that counts for anything.

[Aussie Magic fan 18]

CLee overacheived last year. He played in the perfect system for him.

 

He's in a different system now where the only decent players are Harris and Lopez

[ThisIsTheYear 241]

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Charisma:

quote:

Originally posted by UBBALLER8:

I'm going to miss C-Lee too.

 

I wish it was JJ we sent to NJ instead of him.

 

Might work on PS2 though, if that counts for anything.

 

It didn't. I just got rejected for it.