New PG poll, will it matter?

[LetsGoMagic 3]

who's Teri Bell?

[ibonedteribell 0]

quote:

Originally posted by LetsGoMagic:

who's Teri Bell?

Definitely not Carlos.

[Adam_Magic 56]

quote:

Originally posted by ibonedteribell:

quote:

Originally posted by LetsGoMagic:

who's Teri Bell?

Definitely not Carlos.

 

LOL! Seriously though, who is it?

[ibonedteribell 0]

Reviewing our poll numbers after 52 votes we have, 90% want Jameer to come out of the bench, 50% want Carlos to start, this is of course not considering Diener as an option at this time.

[LetsGoMagic 3]

quote:

Originally posted by ibonedteribell:

Reviewing our poll numbers after 52 votes we have, 90% want Jameer to come out of the bench, 50% want Carlos to start, this is of course not considering Diener as an option at this time.

 

LOL so does that mean your not telling us?

[fishybashi 0]

At this point, I would rather have Carlos Arroyo start over Jameer Nelson. Carlos Arroyo would have excelled in a faster run/gun type offense from the get go if not for Hill's stagnate style. Jameer, as well.

 

However, we have lost way too many games with this Nelson led offense, and he has failed to get others around him better. In fact, it has contributed to making everyone worse.

 

The very reason why this team has deteriorated this year is the continued reliance on a turnover prone, poor percentage shooting, inconsistent, and selfish PG in Jameer Nelson --hence we derive the Magic's current identity as hinging on whether or not he has a good night or not.

 

Arroyo has proven he can lead his country's team to victory. Diener, I think if given the chance, would have been consistent and at least not turnover prone, + one heck of a shooter. That alone would have made changes and get everyone else on the team involved.

[Jose 0]

quote:

Originally posted by emory889:

Jose, I honestly don't even know where to begin on your post. You said so many things that are just flat out wrong that this will take a while...

 

 

You don't know where to start with the post cause you have no real information back up your agruement, lets see what you have to say.

 

quote:

Travis Diener doesn't posssed great basketball IQ like Kidd or Stockon, please don't even compare them. Diener is an excellent shooter.

 

 

No one compared Diener to Kidd or Stockton. It was merely pointed out that there have been some very good point guards in the league that aren't athletic specimens.

 

Don't put Diener's name with Stockon, its a useless comparsion. Kidd, Stockon and Nash are quick point guards. They're not dunking beast, but they're definately not the slowest guys in the league. Diener is possibly the least atheletic PG in the NBA.

 

quote:

Diener is poor at breaking down the defense, this is why our offense is so stationary when he's on the floor.

 

As opposed to how great our offense looks now? I have seen the offense when Diener and JJ are in and it is by far more fluid. No One moves when Carlos and Jameer are in the game because they know they won't get the ball.

 

No you have not seen the offense with Diener or JJ together, only in garbage time. Diener is worthy of playing in crunch time like Carlos, Dooling, or Nelson, period. The offense is more fluid, how so? You can't even explain that. Diener is a stationary PG. He can't penatrate or create for his teammates. His passing ability is the most limited on this team. His scoring? As limited also. In College he could score cause there was less atheletes. In the NBA, he can't blow no one and thats a fact.

 

 

quote:

Carlos Arroyo is the best passer on the team. He hasn't even utilized his passing much this season.

 

Why in Gods name hasn't he? He got way more minutes than most backup point guards get this season. His job is to pass the ball so if he isn't utilizing it the only one that can be blamed is him.

 

And Arroyo has passed the ball better than anyone on the Magic. He has also scored the ball most effenciently than any magic PG. PG's in Brian Hills offense don't rack up alot of insist. Who said Arroyo's job is to only pass the BALL? Theres much more things to playing PG than just passing the ball, especially when theres different variations of passes.

 

quote:

Arroyo averages 7.5 assist per 40 minutes, highest on Orlando by far. Jameer comes in second, and Diener is 3rd.

 

For starters 7 assists in 40 minutes is not a good number for a point guard. There are alot of players that average 7 assists in far fewer minutes. The reason that Arroyo's and Jameer's numbers are even that high is that they dominate the ball on offense. Its almost impossible for anyone else to get an assist when Carlos dribbles for 20 second, runs a pick and roll and then pulls up for a 20 foot jumper. Its also pretty hard to say what Diener assists could be with the limited minutes he gets. I will say this...he always moves the ball and I rarely see him make a questionable pass. That is way more than I can say for our other point guards.

 

First, its 7.5 assist, not 7. Its quite an above average number. Rafer Alston, Marbury get alot of minutes and only average 5-6 assist. Same with Smush Parker. Nelson barely averages 4 and he gets 30 minutes per game. Tony Parker? He's always been a 5-6 assist guy. Bibby is averaging 4.8 assist in 35 minutes per game. Delonte West gets 4.4 assist in 32 minutes per game.

 

Arroyo and Jameer dominate the ball on offense? What the hell are you talking about. You obviously haven't watched one Magic game this season.

 

Dwight is the vocal point on the offense. Dwight is raw as hell offensive, yet the Magic force feed Dwight the ball. Dwight averages almost 4 turnovers a game, but only 18 points per. Thats not very productive, especially when thats the first option.

 

I love Dwight, and he'll be a MVP someday in the league, but right now he's not ready to be a main option offensively. This is why our offense is so poor. Brian Hill thinks Dwight is capable of producing offensively like Shaq. Dwight is poor at passing out of double teams and taking care of the ball, similar to Eddy Curry.

 

Arroyo and Jameer having been scoring guards this year, but they do NOT dominate like you say.

 

Arroyo rarely dribbles for 20 seconds, only when Brian Hill calls out an isolation play for Arroyo. Are you a ****ing idiot? Watch more Magic games before you talk out of your ***.

 

You rarely see Diener play, so shut the **** up and stop trying to be an anaylist for Diener. The only time he gets playing time is garbage time. He isn't worthy to play crunch time minutes. He hasn't even proven he can be productive when he gets minute.

 

A career high of 5 assist...please. The kid is like 25 already. He's not the future PG of this team or the current starter. He's a 3-4 string PG. Theres NO COMPARISION.

 

quote:

Let me ask you a question, since you indicate Diener has such great basketball IQ...where have you seen this? DIENER RARELY plays, so what games do you have to back up your agruement? Diener doesn't play cause his ability is limited. He'll be a 3rd string PG at his prime. Great shooter, no question. His defense, passing ability, and ability to penatrate is extremely questionable.

 

Its hilarious to me that you are willing to write off Diener and say he doesn't have the athletic ability to be a good point guard. How do you know what Diener can do when you have already said several times that he rarely plays? I don't know if Diener can be a good point guard or not but I do know that Jameer and Arroyo haven't gotten the job done all year. I am more than willing to give Diener an opportunity because he can't do any worse. The thing I love about Diener the most is that he doesn't try to do anything that he can't. He sticks to what he does best and that is the definition of a high basktball IQ. Tell me you can say the same thing about our other pgs as they force up bad shot after shot.

 

 

How do you know Diener can't do any worse? You don't KNOW. Brian Hill may be an idiot at times, but theres a reason why he has a job in the NBA and why you're sitting on your *** butt naked every day on the internet. LOL @ you getting the definition of basketball IQ totally wrong. You most likely never played organized ball, could you just stop it already? You'll pulling out random words and trying to define basketball IQ, this made up definition that you're trying your hardest to back up Diener. Its not helping you.

 

Funniest thing you said. Diener doesn't try to do anything he can't.

 

He can't do alot of things.

 

Penatrate and create.

His passing ability is limited.

His scoring ability is extremely limited.

Defensively, he's not very well cordinated or effective.

 

Diener is a good shooter, and thats it. His jumpshot is as sweet as they come. Diener doesn't force up shots cause he can't create or get to the free throw line, do you understand? Diener know he's limited. We don't need one demontional PG's out there in the court.

 

 

quote:

Travis Diener career high in assist is 5, he only had 5 assist in one game...please. Diener isn't a great talent, nor starter material. I'm sick of people labeling him over Nelson, Dooling or Arroyo.

 

I'm sick of people using a statline to define what a good point guard is. I couldn't care less how many assists a point guard gets. If the offense is running smoothly then the point guard is doing his job.

 

You're sick of stats and information that makes my agruement valid and yours not? Tough break. Come back with some more info and insigh that you've watched games(when you haven't. Diener's passing ability is limited and is overrated by many. In college, he wasn't a passer, and in the NBA his passing is even more limited cause he's a step slower in the NBA than college.

 

Well, going back to what you said about the offense running smoothly.

 

When Arroyo gets hot (We've seen this MULTIPLE of times), have we ever seen the Magic offense look any better? Not only Arroyo hits his shots, he gets everyone involved and the offense runs perfectly in a FAST BREAK SET Honestly, Magic play their best when Arroyo gets everyone involved. Magic should run a higher tempo than they normally do.

 

Nelson, Arroyo, or Dooling, it doesn't matter really, these guys are capable of running the offense, we just need a higher tempo.

 

quote:

Diener owns skills that would be more appropriate for a shooting guard.

 

So Diener is too small and lack the athletcism to play the point but you want to play him at the two. Brilliant!

 

I don't know if Diener can be a starter or not and neither do you. Until we see him get significant minutes we will never know. What I do know is that this offense has been flat out terrible all year and changes need to be made. Jameer and Arroyo have had their opportunites.

 

Diener won't be a starter. Most NBA analysist will agree with me and disagree with you. If you brought this weak agruement to TNT, Charles Barkey will take a **** on you. Diener isn't talented and his ability is limited. Theres no reason to even consider Diener as an option. Theres tons of PG's out in the market and draft that would be a better option than Diener.

 

Jameer and Arroyo have had their opportunities, but why must you forget they have shined as good starters? Nelson and Arroyo have had their slumps, but to say Diener deserves to start is flat out ludacris. He isn't better than Nelson or Arroyo at anything except long range shooting.

 

We're still in the playoff hunt, Diener isn't ready to start. Arroyo, Nelson, and Dooling all have experience, and thats what we need coming into the playoffs.

[Jose 0]

quote:

Originally posted by The Dude Abides:

The dude has been feeling pretty blue today....but along came this jewel and really I got a really good chuckle from it.

 

Dude needs to get a job.

 

quote:

 

Travis Diener doesn't posssed great basketball IQ like Kidd or Stockon, please don't even compare them. Diener is an excellent shooter.

 

Unfounded, misquoted comparisions aside, TD has more BBall IQ in his little finger than ANY other option at PG we have.

 

Terrible unreasonable and foolish. Not even worth a reply. Back up your info with game insights and stats. You've failed to do this. Don't waste my time next time.

 

quote:

Nelson contributes more to the PG position than Diener. Atleast you can depend on Nelson sometimes to make plays happend. Diener is NOT a playmaker or the guy you want to hold the ball.

 

Wade is an NBA player maker, Diener keeps the seat warm for Arroyo, Dooling and Nelson.. This isn't NCAA. Reddick was a GOD in college basketball, averging almost 30 points. In the NBA he averages 5 points per.[/b]

 

quote:

Diener is poor at breaking down the defense, this is why our offense is so stationary when he's on the floor.

What games were you watching? I know its been awhile, but you must be confused - the only time the Magic have looked smooth with some ball movement and movement away from the ball is when Diener got minutes.

 

 

The only time that happends is in garbage timeAlot of scrubs look good in garbage time, does it mean they're going to be rewarded with starter minutes? Diener has never looked good in a game really. Not even in garbage time, only average at best. "Some ball movement" You obviously also see Diener is a station PG, he doesn't do alot of on offense, all he does is pass it off to the wing player, and wait for someone to double team a big man so he can get open for a misssed 3pt shot. He's very LIMITED, he's not a creator, not a playermaker.

 

quote:

Carlos Arroyo is the best passer on the team. He hasn't even utilized his passing much this season.

That shows immense BBall IQ - LOL.

 

You say basketball IQ in every post...I guess Diener the Great is the only one in the league who posses this "great" basketball IQ...lmao. Come up with a new logic, this one is failing you and the other Dienerites poorly. (I Love how people on this site especially the Mods always ***** about Arroyo fanatics, when Dienerites label Diener over everyone and assume he has the highest basketball IQ on the team. If Grant Hill, Turk, Arroyo, Dooling or Meer don't pass it enough to someone who isn't open, its assumed that Diener has a higher BB IQ than them. (I'm not one of the Arroyo fanatics, **** you if you think so cause my name is Jose(****ing stereotypes), I'm just a pissed off Magic fan, and I'll tell you right now Arroyo hasn't played his best basketball to his ability, but I say that about every Magic player, because we do have an extremely talented team. I think we need a new coach, a coach that fits this team.[/b]

 

quote:

Arroyo averages 7.5 assist per 40 minutes, highest on Orlando by far. Jameer comes in second, and Diener is 3rd.

Heres a worthless stat for ya -CA leads the NBA with fans that think hes the second coming of christ.

 

Yet, another worthless text comment by you, you're on a row dewd.

 

quote:

Let me ask you a question, since you indicate Diener has such great basketball IQ...where have you seen this? DIENER RARELY plays, so what games do you have to back up your agruement? Diener doesn't play cause his ability is limited. He'll be a 3rd string PG at his prime. Great shooter, no question. His defense, passing ability, and ability to penatrate is extremely questionable.

Well, for one. His teammates have expressed this point before, he is always said to have a great BBall IQ - and as far as bieng a third PG in his prime - I guess thats T.B.D., atleast we can say more informed things like - CA IS a 3rd string option.

 

Again, with the BBall IQ...lol, you really don't know what you're talking about huh? If Arroyo is a 3rd string option why has his starter almost 100 games in his NBA career. Guess how many games Diener started? Learn how to say more informed things you unemployed fat hippie

 

quote:

Travis Diener career high in assist is 5, he only had 5 assist in one game...please. Diener isn't a great talent, nor starter material. I'm sick of people labeling him over Nelson, Dooling or Arroyo.

Maybe a taste of what your dishin out is the best medicine? lord knows no one here has ever gotten sick of hearing how good Arroyo is only to watch him flounder his way up and down the court. this is just idiotic.

 

Career high of 5 assist Please tell me what Diener has done in his NBA career that makes his worthy of starting to you except that fact you orgasm his dirty groomed hair every Magic game you watch.

 

 

quote:

Everyone in the NBA has basketball IQ. I like how you award Diener with basketball IQ, cause the rest of his ability to play basketball is limited. Diener is an undersized PG who plays like he's 4 foot tall.

I like how you awarded other people with talent based on their nationality and then in the same sentence use pure bull crap to illustrate a point - Poitns are awarded on merit - not overreaction or purely false statements as hes 4 foot tall.

Award people based on their nationality? Arroyo is a US Citizen, he's Puerto Rican, so what? So are a whole buch of Orlando residents. Put that aside, I never brought up nationality here. Its the idiots like you who always start these worthless agruements. I'm not even PR, I'm Dominican(mostly likely your dumbass can't find it on a map.)

 

Tell me how Diener should be awarded? He's a 3 point per game scorer who shoots 36% from 3pt. 1 assist per game. too Denier is the definiton of a 3rd string scrub.

 

quote:

Can you imagine Diener get starting minutes? PG's like Arenas or Williams will blow by him. Diener is fragile defensively. Even though he puts the effort in it, he's not affective.

yes, I can imagine him getting starting minutes, well all have seen what giving the other 2 the start gets us, and its not stellar defencxe in case you have missed that one as well.

 

Stop smoking that pot dewd, Diener being a starter in the NBA is almost as realstic as you getting employed.

 

quote:

Diener owns skills that would be more appropriate for a shooting guard. At best Diener is an average passer. Arroyo is proven to be an excellent passer(top 5 in the NBA with the Pistons in assist for 40 minutes) Nelson for some reason has the ability to break down the defense with his penatration and make good passers to Howard or Battie, but his mentality doesn't fit that. Dooling is a combo guard.

so oyu want a slow, 4 foot tall SG, that has no BBall IQ, is a stagnant player, with zero ability to go lane??? Hmmm. I think you may have a hidden agenda, just maybe.

 

Were you born in this country, can you atleast present that to me in English? Thanks

 

 

quote:

Diener isn't special, he is what you see. Don't get hyped up into believing Diener will emerge some year as a starting PG cause he won't.

See what Arroyo does with big minutes? Arroyo produces well with big minutes. Arroyo is accually a better starter than bench player. The guy can average 15 and 5 in 30 minutes of play easily if given the opportunity.

Good, Im glad to hear that he can average those kinda numbers, must be like his passing game, just not goin to do it this year as you pointed out earlier, once again, He must have tremendous BBall IQ to be able to do that , but not.

 

Once again he speaks of the mysterious basketball IQ with no basketball IQ...good job

 

quote:

Jonathan said it best, Arroyo is the most capable productive starter. I'm not dissing Diener here, I like him as a 3rd string PG, especially when he's always hustling if we're losing or winning. Let Arroyo and Dooling run the show at PG, Nelson can play SG.

well sadly, I am having to diss CA here in order to show some palces where you bent the truth too far and made some questionable statements, its not hat I dislike the guy, I dislike his game, big difference, I appreciate your restraint in dissing TD, it makes you seem a bit more in tune with reality than I initially thought.

 

Whatever man, come back at me more seriously next time, I rarely get owned in a debate with more basketball insight and learn from you, instead of reading your corny jokes, thanks for wasting my time

[Emory889 353]

Wow you took my nonthreatening post and got really hostile with it. Did you actually say that "Charles Barkley would take a s*** on me"? That's the first time I've heard that one. If you want to continue thinking that Arroyo is the greatest point guard of alltime then go ahead. Your beloved stats don't back you up though.

 

Click on the link and it lets you sort the assists by 48 minutes, total assists, assists per game etc. Arroyo is 88th in total assists and 89th in assists per game (Jameer is 49th in case you cared). Here is a real good one: Arroyo is 45th in assists per 48 minutes. James Augustine is 4th averaging 13 assists per 48 minutes. You are right stats never lie they are proof that our true point guard was under our noses the whole time. James Augustine come on down.

 

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Assists.jsp?season...Teams&pager.offset=0

[Osprey 199]

Holy crap Jose!!!

 

Charles Barkley takes dumps on people? I forgot that back in the day he was lovingly referred to as Sir Charles "Cleveland Steamer" Barkley.

 

But I digress. Congratulations Jose. You win the award for most vitriolic, character-assassination, overblown, and just plain un-invoked posts I have ever read here. Not only did you completely bash Travis Diener, but also 2 posters on this board.

 

Keep that positive energy flowing big guy!

 

By the way, I know what the Dominican Republic looks like on a map.... Its purple.

[longdfan 0]

Jose can you see? Lets start with this "argruement" argument is the American version! If I hear one more time how CA has lead his nation to a win over the USA I think I will learn every cuss word in Spanish! This is the US you fool! If he so darn good go back to PR and start a NBA team. I have heard that he isn't even the best PG in PR! PR basketball fans are the most biased and racist people in the world. Remember this is the USA and anyone including Americans should feel privledged to play for any NBA team and to make that much money for playing a game. There is a reason why he has not stayed with teams and been a starter. Not evey organization and coach can be wrong. Carlos has played well off the bench in his last two games that is undeniable, but it took him 70 games to do it. BB IQ or just IQ!

[Puya 0]

quote:

Originally posted by longdfan:

Jose can you see? Lets start with this "argruement" argument is the American version! If I hear one more time how CA has lead his nation to a win over the USA I think I will learn every cuss word in Spanish! This is the US you fool! If he so darn good go back to PR and start a NBA team. I have heard that he isn't even the best PG in PR! PR basketball fans are the most biased and racist people in the world. Remember this is the USA and anyone including Americans should feel privledged to play for any NBA team and to make that much money for playing a game. There is a reason why he has not stayed with teams and been a starter. Not evey organization and coach can be wrong. Carlos has played well off the bench in his last two games that is undeniable, but it took him 70 games to do it. BB IQ or just IQ!

 

HEy if you have something to say to Jose say it to him don't start generalizing as if he represents all puertorricans, Imagine If I compare all Americas as if they where like you?(not fair alot will say) What is that BS about going bad *** at him for one bad word in his grammar? are you a teacher ? I bet you can't at least speak or write half of the spanish as he does in english. Grow up please. One thing is that you don't like Arroyo's game and some people in Pr will agree with including me at times but don't start this moronic atacks.