Stop even remotely thinking about trading Turk!!!

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by ThisIsTheYear:

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

quote:

Originally posted by Put Me In Coach!:

Are those 50 players on your list going to average 20 pts 6 rbds 4 asts and lead the game on 4th quarter points and show up on clutch plays in Orlando? Hedo obviously is not the best forward in NBA, but he has proven game after game that he's a great fit for this Orlando team. He has been consistent through all 31 games this season. The difference from prior seasons is this year SVG is determined to give Hedo his minutes and plays. Hedo might have gotten consistent minutes before but never got these much freedom on the court before. You might not have noticed that.

 

Lead the game on fourth quarter points? What does that even mean?

 

And you act like those stats are so great. Caron Butler's stats are flat out better on a worse team without a dominant center, and he's a MUCH better defender. So are Odom's. So are several other players just at the small forward slot. Expand to trading for other positions as well, and your statement becomes almost satirical of itself.

 

I HAD noticed he's getting a lot of freedom. I'm not blind. The reason is Dwight, and you're flat out delusional if you think it's any reason to the contrary. Hedo is benefiting from the fact that after 2 people guard Dwight, the rest of the defense is playing 4 on 3. Someone's going to be open. The difference between Hedo, Bogans, Lewis and Nelson is that right now Hedo is hitting shots.

 

But here's the bigger question: Everyone's so quick to jump up down and sideways about Hedo's fourth quarter and overtime, but have you considered the fact that had he simply scored even a few of those points before hand, in regulation, there wouldn't have been an overtime.

 

This happened last year in the playoffs between games 1 and 2 and games 3 and 4. The difference between being a heroic clutch shooter and an idiot is whether or not the off-balance 3 goes in.

 

Boy, oh boy, that may be the most ridiculous statement I've ever read. You could relate that to any player in the league, including Wade/LeBron/Kobe/Pierce/etc. What's the purpose of this statement?

 

Hedo has been the glue to this team. Having three guys out there who can put up 20+ points each night puts the opponents in a very sticky situation. Hedo is the team's 3rd (maybe now, the second) scoring option, yet you're comparing him to a guy that's the number one option on his team. (Butler) By the way, Caron averages 2.5 more points, 0.7 more rebounds, and 0.2 more assists than Turk. Lamar averages better rebounds but far less points and assists.

 

Maybe you truly are drunk on mystery because, otherwise, I just can't see how any of the statements above, excluding the one where Dwight opens up the game, can be used in a valid argument.

 

I'll rephrase it then: In the game I was referring to, Hedo was a non-factor for 3 quarters on offense, while doing next to nothing on defense. The difference between Hedo and Lebron/Kobe/Wade in that regard is that if Lebron/Kobe/Wade aren't scoring, they're likely still drawing additional defenders away from other people. Hedo is having a career year, thanks in huge part because someone ELSE is drawing additional defenders away.

 

Better?

 

Oh, and if you think Butler is only 2.5 more points, .7 rebounds, and .2 assists better than Turk, you've clearly never watched Butler play. Butler is better on offense, MUCH better on defense, and while he may not be the Wizards "glue guy", he's proven he's willing and capable of being "the guy" when it's necessary, which I'd say is much more impressive. And if you're wondering, I live outside Baltimore, and since the Wizards don't have broadcasting problems, I watch all their games. Butler is a substantially better player than Hedo is, and no realistic argument could be made to the contrary. But somehow I've been forced off topic in this thread, yet again. So since bolding text you want to emphasize is apparently the new black, I'll give this a whirl.

 

 

The issue, for me, was never about "bashing Hedo". Hell, in my first post in this thread I said flat out someone was going to say I was bashing Hedo for stating a flat out fact, that Smack summed up nicely:

 

Hedo is the only trade bait we have, besides Dwight, and therefore could be used to get us a serious improvement and/or help make the team more balanced. For anyone to suggest they'd NEVER trade Hedo, for any reason, because he had 1, 5, 14, or 31 good games is painfully shortsighted.

[Put Me In Coach! 0]

quote:

I'll rephrase it then: In the game I was referring to, Hedo was a non-factor for 3 quarters on offense, while doing next to nothing on defense. The difference between Hedo and Lebron/Kobe/Wade in that regard is that if Lebron/Kobe/Wade aren't scoring, they're likely still drawing additional defenders away from other people. Hedo is having a career year, thanks in huge part because someone ELSE is drawing additional defenders away.

 

Better?

 

Oh, and if you think Butler is only 2.5 more points, .7 rebounds, and .2 assists better than Turk, you've clearly never watched Butler play. Butler is better on offense, MUCH better on defense, and while he may not be the Wizards "glue guy", he's proven he's willing and capable of being "the guy" when it's necessary, which I'd say is much more impressive. And if you're wondering, I live outside Baltimore, and since the Wizards don't have broadcasting problems, I watch all their games. Butler is a substantially better player than Hedo is, and no realistic argument could be made to the contrary. But somehow I've been forced off topic in this thread, yet again. So since bolding text you want to emphasize is apparently the new black, I'll give this a whirl.

 

 

The issue, for me, was never about "bashing Hedo". Hell, in my first post in this thread I said flat out someone was going to say I was bashing Hedo for stating a flat out fact, that Smack summed up nicely:

 

Hedo is the only trade bait we have, besides Dwight, and therefore could be used to get us a serious improvement and/or help make the team more balanced. For anyone to suggest they'd NEVER trade Hedo, for any reason, because he had 1, 5, 14, or 31 good games is painfully shortsighted.

 

 

Are you saying trade Hedo for Kobe/LeBron or Wade? If you are, let me break the news WON'T HAPPEN. If you are not, then why are you comparing him to Kobe/LeBron/Wade?

 

As far as Butler, Hedo is better. Also after 32 games, it is a FACT that Hedo is great for Magic. I ask again WHY? and WHY? would you trade a PROVEN success piece of Magic for someone like Butler whom you CANNOT guarantee that he's gonna perform better than Hedo ALREADY has.

 

I liked some of the trade scenarios SmackDaddy named but not for Hedo. If the whole purpose of a trade is to improve your squad, how's loosing a great player of your team accomplish that? (unless of course you bring home a superstar, but in this case not)

 

I mean what else Hedo has to do?

[ThisIsTheYear 241]

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

quote:

Originally posted by ThisIsTheYear:

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

quote:

Originally posted by Put Me In Coach!:

Are those 50 players on your list going to average 20 pts 6 rbds 4 asts and lead the game on 4th quarter points and show up on clutch plays in Orlando? Hedo obviously is not the best forward in NBA, but he has proven game after game that he's a great fit for this Orlando team. He has been consistent through all 31 games this season. The difference from prior seasons is this year SVG is determined to give Hedo his minutes and plays. Hedo might have gotten consistent minutes before but never got these much freedom on the court before. You might not have noticed that.

 

Lead the game on fourth quarter points? What does that even mean?

 

And you act like those stats are so great. Caron Butler's stats are flat out better on a worse team without a dominant center, and he's a MUCH better defender. So are Odom's. So are several other players just at the small forward slot. Expand to trading for other positions as well, and your statement becomes almost satirical of itself.

 

I HAD noticed he's getting a lot of freedom. I'm not blind. The reason is Dwight, and you're flat out delusional if you think it's any reason to the contrary. Hedo is benefiting from the fact that after 2 people guard Dwight, the rest of the defense is playing 4 on 3. Someone's going to be open. The difference between Hedo, Bogans, Lewis and Nelson is that right now Hedo is hitting shots.

 

But here's the bigger question: Everyone's so quick to jump up down and sideways about Hedo's fourth quarter and overtime, but have you considered the fact that had he simply scored even a few of those points before hand, in regulation, there wouldn't have been an overtime.

 

This happened last year in the playoffs between games 1 and 2 and games 3 and 4. The difference between being a heroic clutch shooter and an idiot is whether or not the off-balance 3 goes in.

 

Boy, oh boy, that may be the most ridiculous statement I've ever read. You could relate that to any player in the league, including Wade/LeBron/Kobe/Pierce/etc. What's the purpose of this statement?

 

Hedo has been the glue to this team. Having three guys out there who can put up 20+ points each night puts the opponents in a very sticky situation. Hedo is the team's 3rd (maybe now, the second) scoring option, yet you're comparing him to a guy that's the number one option on his team. (Butler) By the way, Caron averages 2.5 more points, 0.7 more rebounds, and 0.2 more assists than Turk. Lamar averages better rebounds but far less points and assists.

 

Maybe you truly are drunk on mystery because, otherwise, I just can't see how any of the statements above, excluding the one where Dwight opens up the game, can be used in a valid argument.

 

I'll rephrase it then: In the game I was referring to, Hedo was a non-factor for 3 quarters on offense, while doing next to nothing on defense. The difference between Hedo and Lebron/Kobe/Wade in that regard is that if Lebron/Kobe/Wade aren't scoring, they're likely still drawing additional defenders away from other people. Hedo is having a career year, thanks in huge part because someone ELSE is drawing additional defenders away.

 

Better?

 

Oh, and if you think Butler is only 2.5 more points, .7 rebounds, and .2 assists better than Turk, you've clearly never watched Butler play. Butler is better on offense, MUCH better on defense, and while he may not be the Wizards "glue guy", he's proven he's willing and capable of being "the guy" when it's necessary, which I'd say is much more impressive. And if you're wondering, I live outside Baltimore, and since the Wizards don't have broadcasting problems, I watch all their games. Butler is a substantially better player than Hedo is, and no realistic argument could be made to the contrary. But somehow I've been forced off topic in this thread, yet again. So since bolding text you want to emphasize is apparently the new black, I'll give this a whirl.

 

 

The issue, for me, was never about "bashing Hedo". Hell, in my first post in this thread I said flat out someone was going to say I was bashing Hedo for stating a flat out fact, that Smack summed up nicely:

 

Hedo is the only trade bait we have, besides Dwight, and therefore could be used to get us a serious improvement and/or help make the team more balanced. For anyone to suggest they'd NEVER trade Hedo, for any reason, because he had 1, 5, 14, or 31 good games is painfully shortsighted.

 

Alright, you were talking about the Miami game. Fair enough.

 

Since we're on the topic of Hedo being a trade asset, what exactly would you consider an even trade off for Turk? Someone stated up that a serviceable young big man would be fine, but I wouldn't trade a 20, 5, and 5 player for that. It's not like he's a mere role player, he's an integral factor in this teams early success.

[Soul Bro 1,422]

This is a great discussion and has my attention. Please keep it coming. (And, no, I'm not being sarcastic).

[Berto 338]

I don't understand the logic of trading away your second best player just to fill some voids. What would our record be right now without Hedo? I don't think that's being shorsighted.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by Put Me In Coach!:

Are you saying trade Hedo for Kobe/LeBron or Wade? If you are, let me break the news WON'T HAPPEN. If you are not, then why are you comparing him to Kobe/LeBron/Wade?

I used those names because someone else did, and I was responding to them. I recognize that there is no way any of those players get traded for Hedo. That wasn't the point. I was discussing the value those players bring to their offenses when they AREN'T scoring, that Hedo doesn't.

 

As far as Butler, Hedo is better. Also after 32 games, it is a FACT that Hedo is great for Magic. I ask again WHY? and WHY? would you trade a PROVEN success piece of Magic for someone like Butler whom you CANNOT guarantee that he's gonna perform better than Hedo ALREADY has.

Butler is 4x the defender Hedo is, and has better stats on offense. I don't realistically know how you can argue Hedo is better. As for why would you trade a player you know fits for a better player you don't know will, I'd do it because taking risks are necessary. The 90s Bulls had no reason to believe Rodman wouldn't flake out, but they took the risk and won title after title. It was a risk. But the potential reward was high enough they took the risk. It paid off. Sometimes it doesn't. That's why it's a risk.

 

I liked some of the trade scenarios SmackDaddy named but not for Hedo. If the whole purpose of a trade is to improve your squad, how's loosing a great player of your team accomplish that? (unless of course you bring home a superstar, but in this case not)

And mine and Smackdaddy's point was that nothing we have other than Hedo and Dwight would be appealing to any other team, much less appealing enough to land us a good piece. No one is going to give us a starting caliber power forward for Pat Garrity and Brian Cook. We have to give up something good to get something good. Right now we have two starting caliber small forwards, and the one who's playing worse, Rashard, happens to also have a completely untradeable contract. So that means that, of the two, Hedo is the one we'd have to trade if we were going to trade one. And if you want to go after a player of Udonis Haslem's quality, you're not going to get them for JUST expirings. There needs to also be young, cheap talent, and we have very little of that available.

 

I mean what else Hedo has to do?

If you'd understood my posts, you'd have realized that this was completely not the point. Hedo has played exceptionally well. It's a career year. But the Magic will never make serious noise in the playoffs without a legitimate power forward, and trading Hedo is the best means they have of doing that.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by ThisIsTheYear:

Since we're on the topic of Hedo being a trade asset, what exactly would you consider an even trade off for Turk? Someone stated up that a serviceable young big man would be fine, but I wouldn't trade a 20, 5, and 5 player for that. It's not like he's a mere role player, he's an integral factor in this teams early success.

 

I'd think very hard about any of the trades Smack listed.

 

I'd agree to any of them in a heartbeat if Garrity was replaced by Cook in the trades.

 

In the Lee trade, I'd rather have a future 1st than Jared Jeffries, but I don't think that works salary wise.

 

Beyond that, I'd probably make most of those trades. I have concerns about Brad Miller's health holding up, but I think I might make that trade anyways.

 

I mentioned Haslem earlier because I think he's the kind of player this team needs, and I'd absolutely make that trade. In fact, I'd say I'd rather make that trade than any of the others Smack listed.

[Marc Acres 3:16 418]

quote:

Originally posted by Kberto:

I don't understand the logic of trading away your second best player just to fill some voids. What would our record be right now without Hedo? I don't think that's being shorsighted.

 

We would probably have about 5 more losses without him.

 

Here is the thing that I think a lot of us are not looking at, no player (outside of Dwight) is untouchable. What are our 2 holes in this team? PG and PF, if trading Turk gets you a defensive point that can shoot some and run the offense and a PF that can shoot from 15ft and rebound and in the process allows Shard to move to the 3 where he is much more effective don't you have to do it?

 

I've always liked Turk, even when he was in Sac, but this team has a history of missing opportunities. Trevor's value was at an all time high last year and we whiffed, this is a pattern with us. I'd hate to see the guy go but if the right offer comes around to get us closer to being a contender then you must do it.

 

Trading Turk is a gamble, you are gambling that someone else is going to step up in his absence and honestly I worry that he is our "Darrell" right now. I worry that letting him go is going to damage the team but we have a choice, stay where we are, play nyce regular season ball and get the crap kicked out of us by tougher/bigger teams or take a risk on the big money and fabulous prizes.

[SauceMoney 0]

What if you could trade Turk and get 2 players that can play the 2 and the 4 and put up more points then him and plays better defense then him. That would be worth the trade to me. Dont see the problem.

[Kramer 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Acres 3:16:

quote:

Originally posted by Kberto:

I don't understand the logic of trading away your second best player just to fill some voids. What would our record be right now without Hedo? I don't think that's being shorsighted.

 

We would probably have about 5 more losses without him.

 

Here is the thing that I think a lot of us are not looking at, no player (outside of Dwight) is untouchable. What are our 2 holes in this team? PG and PF, if trading Turk gets you a defensive point that can shoot some and run the offense and a PF that can shoot from 15ft and rebound and in the process allows Shard to move to the 3 where he is much more effective don't you have to do it?

 

I've always liked Turk, even when he was in Sac, but this team has a history of missing opportunities. Trevor's value was at an all time high last year and we whiffed, this is a pattern with us. I'd hate to see the guy go but if the right offer comes around to get us closer to being a contender then you must do it.

 

Trading Turk is a gamble, you are gambling that someone else is going to step up in his absence and honestly I worry that he is our "Darrell" right now. I worry that letting him go is going to damage the team but we have a choice, stay where we are, play nyce regular season ball and get the crap kicked out of us by tougher/bigger teams or take a risk on the big money and fabulous prizes.

 

Or we can begin the development of young James Augistine and accept that there is no "formula" for a good team. We play small ball right now and at 21-11 and at least one of our two natural point gaurds being injured for the past few weeks, I am happy. We have the ability to beat anybody on any given day. So we need to have 4 of those days in a 7 game span and we will win series, but more than likely we won't make the Eastern Conference Finals. But next season when Turk is coming off career highs, Rashard is going to be completely used to the system, Dwight will have some stability at head coach for the first time in his NBA career, and Tony Battie will be back, we will contend for the title. It's the idea that trading away parts to turn an unique line up into a less talented line up but with Rashard at the 3 is what will destroy all hope for title contention this year and next.

[Marc Acres 3:16 418]

There are many ways to build a winning team but we have trouble on defense and on the boards and in the playoffs we are going to get exposed.

 

GS had a nyce run last year and even beat Dallas playing small ball. When they got to a tougher team that could rebound, they lost. I'm not saying give away Turk for spare parts, what I am saying is if you can get the pieces that will allow us to play a traditional lineup along with a small ball that we play now, then that gives us the chance to beat the tougher teams that can hit the glass.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by Kramer:

quote:

Originally posted by Marc Acres 3:16:

quote:

Originally posted by Kberto:

I don't understand the logic of trading away your second best player just to fill some voids. What would our record be right now without Hedo? I don't think that's being shorsighted.

 

We would probably have about 5 more losses without him.

 

Here is the thing that I think a lot of us are not looking at, no player (outside of Dwight) is untouchable. What are our 2 holes in this team? PG and PF, if trading Turk gets you a defensive point that can shoot some and run the offense and a PF that can shoot from 15ft and rebound and in the process allows Shard to move to the 3 where he is much more effective don't you have to do it?

 

I've always liked Turk, even when he was in Sac, but this team has a history of missing opportunities. Trevor's value was at an all time high last year and we whiffed, this is a pattern with us. I'd hate to see the guy go but if the right offer comes around to get us closer to being a contender then you must do it.

 

Trading Turk is a gamble, you are gambling that someone else is going to step up in his absence and honestly I worry that he is our "Darrell" right now. I worry that letting him go is going to damage the team but we have a choice, stay where we are, play nyce regular season ball and get the crap kicked out of us by tougher/bigger teams or take a risk on the big money and fabulous prizes.

 

Or we can begin the development of young James Augistine and accept that there is no "formula" for a good team. We play small ball right now and at 21-11 and at least one of our two natural point gaurds being injured for the past few weeks, I am happy. We have the ability to beat anybody on any given day. So we need to have 4 of those days in a 7 game span and we will win series, but more than likely we won't make the Eastern Conference Finals. But next season when Turk is coming off career highs, Rashard is going to be completely used to the system, Dwight will have some stability at head coach for the first time in his NBA career, and Tony Battie will be back, we will contend for the title. It's the idea that trading away parts to turn an unique line up into a less talented line up but with Rashard at the 3 is what will destroy all hope for title contention this year and next.

 

I think a lot of people on this board, myself included, believe that James may develop into a quality backup big who provides energy and plays hard, but that he simply doesn't have the strength or skill necessary to be a good starter in the NBA. And while I'd be thrilled if he did develop into a quality backup big, since we desperately need a backup 4 who can play, that still wouldn't address the fundamental issue of our need for a true Power Forward. The Detroit game early in the season exemplified that need, because Detroit, more than any other team in the NBA right now, is a team built for the playoffs, and it's for that reason I think Detroit will steam roll over Boston in the ECF this year. They slow the game down and bang it out, and in a series against THAT team in THAT style, our team simply couldn't win a series playing 2 small forwards. And if we're going to win a title, we're going to have to beat that team.