2023-2024 General Game Thread

[Albert Lergier 99]

2 hours ago, CTMagicUK said:

I dunno how quickly WCJ will be back at the conditioning level to play full starter minutes, whether that'll be immediately or take a couple games but once he's back to 100% I'd just have him start and take up the bulk of the C minutes. 30-32 minimum. The remainder you give to Mo Wagner with the bench unit, possibly get away with a couple minutes here and there of playing WCJ and Mo together.

Goga I'd just slot back into the third string role with the caveat that I'd be much more willing to give him a chance on nights where we're getting out rebounded or against bigger, bulkier back up 5s than I ever would before the season started. So some nights he gets 20 mins when Wendell is in foul trouble or if Mo is struggling on defense and some nights he's DNP-CD. That's the life of being a 5th (6th I guess including JI) big in the NBA. 

It's a little harsh on Goga who's done an admirable job filling in for Wendell and who's had some legitimately great games in this stretch. But I think the longer this stretch has gone on the more you've seen the limitations of Goga emerge on both sides. And some of that isn't really his fault, I think the defense of the team has dropped off a lot since the Boston game and previously that swarming, limbs everywhere, intense defense from everyone else covered for Goga in certain situations, without that he's being put in situations that are difficult for someone of his mobility. 

Could playing Chuma ( "3 & D player" ) earlier in the game would have made something of a difference?

Could Kevon Harris ( that # 7 guy) playing alongside Suggs in spurts could have help us defensively?

 

[CTMagicUK 1,483]

23 minutes ago, Albert Lergier said:

Could playing Chuma ( "3 & D player" ) earlier in the game would have made something of a difference?

Could Kevon Harris ( that # 7 guy) playing alongside Suggs in spurts could have help us defensively?

 

Harris wasn't active. But no I highly doubt either would have made a difference.

[Jon 30]

2 hours ago, Luke_FfS said:

Has been a great streak and every streak has an end. Not worried overall by losing yesterday game in a back to back, but a little slip on defensive standard was noted in previous games too, so that's the priority in those days off. Both Markelle and Wendell are better players right now of the ones that we had on the starting lineup, and even if I understand the chemestry point of view, as soon as they're ready we'll need them.

I don’t think some people look deep and see how Fultz’s way of playing negatively hurts Paolo and Franz It’s night and day. 
 

[harryfromphilly 75]

10 minutes ago, Jon said:

I don’t think some people look deep and see how Fultz’s way of playing negatively hurts Paolo and Franz It’s night and day. 
 

I both agree and disagree with this Jon.   Yes he plays slower and more deliberately, taking away alot of the energy and spontaneity of the other 2.

But, he usually gives up the ball. He is a pass first guard.     I think maybe the solution, is allowing F or P to bring up the ball on occasion, and/or unless M sees

a clear path, pass sooner.    Will he do this? Who knows.   If I am the coaching staff I would be pointing these things out before he goes back in.

And despite being a Fultz fan, unless he accepts a team friendly deal, I see us moving on either at the trade deadline or next summer.

[Jon 30]

12 minutes ago, harryfromphilly said:

I both agree and disagree with this Jon.   Yes he plays slower and more deliberately, taking away alot of the energy and spontaneity of the other 2.

But, he usually gives up the ball. He is a pass first guard.     I think maybe the solution, is allowing F or P to bring up the ball on occasion, and/or unless M sees

a clear path, pass sooner.    Will he do this? Who knows.   If I am the coaching staff I would be pointing these things out before he goes back in.

And despite being a Fultz fan, unless he accepts a team friendly deal, I see us moving on either at the trade deadline or next summer.

It’s not an opinion. The stats are overwhelmingly proving that Fultz’s way of playing negatively affects Paolo/Franz.

[harryfromphilly 75]

I understand that the stats read that way.   Was not arguing. Was suggesting that with slight tweaking they could play the season out, in better shape than with Black. And that we should be looking to move him.   If we keep him on a very team friendly contract, it is with the understanding that Black will be getting minutes, as a look to the future.   I doubt Fultz would accept this, but given his history, who knows. May be happy to transition. ?

[Luke_FfS 248]

19 hours ago, Jon said:

It’s not an opinion. The stats are overwhelmingly proving that Fultz’s way of playing negatively affects Paolo/Franz.

There're a lot of different stats nowadays, advanced and not, and all of them could tell a different story. Even if true, AB is clearly not ready to be a starter yet, as showed in a lot of games in which he played limited minutes. That's normal, he's a rookie. We could agree that Fultz is not a great fit with the rest of the core, we discussed that a lot of time in the past, but we definitely need more at PG in the future of what we had in that streak. FO at some point will have to decide on Markelle future, but until that point, having him back could be a minus in some situations, but should be a plus overall.

[Jon 30]

1 hour ago, Luke_FfS said:

There're a lot of different stats nowadays, advanced and not, and all of them could tell a different story. Even if true, AB is clearly not ready to be a starter yet, as showed in a lot of games in which he played limited minutes. That's normal, he's a rookie. We could agree that Fultz is not a great fit with the rest of the core, we discussed that a lot of time in the past, but we definitely need more at PG in the future of what we had in that streak. FO at some point will have to decide on Markelle future, but until that point, having him back could be a minus in some situations, but should be a plus overall.

Unfortunately it doesn’t. It’s a big minus overall. I looked at it at all angles and all the stats show that Fultz game diminishes Paolo and Franz a great deal. Same stats show that when those two are playing well, we win more. 
 

AB has a lot of growth to obtain but he does things that Fultz doesn’t. His one our better defenders. A better pick and roll player and at least attempts outside shots and at times hits them.

We are better when Paolo/Franz are making plays which with Fultz, doesn’t happen because Fultz needs the ball to even  be a presence. Without the ball he’s not a factor whatsoever. His defense isn’t enough to say “well ok but at least he defends at a high level” Unlike AB who’s defense has been key for our winning streak. Fultz is also not an elite passer. He’s great at kick outs but lacks versatility in his vision. Isn’t much of a pick and roll passer. AB has been better even though the general stats show low assist numbers. He makes the right play at the right time in a variety of situations.

I do agree that a different guard wouldn’t be a bad idea but the narrative that Fultz should come back, step into the starting lineup after the way we have played and been winning, has no data whatsoever to be a good idea. All data right now show that to be a complete mistake.

[Luke_FfS 248]

1 hour ago, Jon said:

Unfortunately it doesn’t. It’s a big minus overall. I looked at it at all angles and all the stats show that Fultz game diminishes Paolo and Franz a great deal. Same stats show that when those two are playing well, we win more.

Please share links of those stats. But if are only based on this season, will obvious show such a picture, cause we had the streak with Fultz injured. What about last season? We were terrible until Fultz was out, and then quite good after. Maybe the same stats applied to last season will show another history ;)

[Jon 30]

1 hour ago, Luke_FfS said:

Please share links of those stats. But if are only based on this season, will obvious show such a picture, cause we had the streak with Fultz injured. What about last season? We were terrible until Fultz was out, and then quite good after. Maybe the same stats applied to last season will show another history ;)

There’s a lot but here’s some telling ones 

Fultz
4.9 time of possession, 5.05 average seconds per touch, 4.88 dribbles per touch

Paolo WITH Fultz
3.4 time of possession, 3.19 average seconds per touch, 2.34 dribbles per touch 

Paolo WITHOUT Fultz
4.6 time of possession, 4.02 average seconds per touch, 3.17 dribbles per touch 

Franz WITH Fultz
2.9 time of possession, 3.10 average seconds per touch, 2.32 dribbles per touch 

Franz WITHOUT Fultz
3.2 time of possession, 3.36 average seconds per touch, 2.74 dribbles per touch 

Suggs WITH Fultz
1.7 time of possession, 2.65 average seconds per touch, 2.11 dribbles per touch 

Suggs WITHOUT Fultz
2.6 time of possession, 3.22 average seconds per touch, 2.69 dribbles per touch 

Black
1.7 time of possession, 3.38 average seconds per touch, 2.63 dribbles per touch

 

In the first 4 games (when Fultz was healthy/playing) Time Per Possession: Fultz: 4.9 <—- Paolo: 2.6 Franz: 2.9 _______________________________________ The last 12 games (Fultz played 1 game in the middle of this): Time Per Possession: Paolo: 4.8 <—- Franz: 3.2 ______________________________

Paolo's stats in those time frames. 1st 4 games: 12/5/4 on 44 TS% Last 12 games: 22/7/4 on 60 TS%

 

Now one might say “ok then let Paiolo/Franz/Suggs continue on and just allow Fultz play more off ball.” Well issue is he has no game that’s meant for off ball. In 4 games this season he took 3 3pt attempts. Anthony Black, not the best shooter, took 9 in 4 games hitting. at a decent percentage. He has since tallied off but he’s still attempting them. Fultz style is also an issue. Fultz gets his assets mainly by slashing and kick outs whicch means ball has to be in his hands. Where as Black can receive a pass without the ball initially in his hands and make an extra one. He doesn’t have to have the ball in his hands, isolate dribble, break down defenses, just to make an great play. Black’s height and IQ here shines and doesn’t always translates to the box score. His pass might not equate to an assist but helps offensive execution.

[CTMagicUK 1,483]

I'm on record as believing Markelle is the odd man out on this roster but there's a lot of small sample size at play with these stats. A 4 game sample is nowhere near definitive enough to prove that Paolo is better without Markelle. It might well be true over the long term. But it could just as easily be written off as a a Paolo slump to start the season, we need more data. And fortunately (or unfortunately if you're very against Markelle returning to the SL) we'll likely get some this season in time to make a decision on Markelle both short (trade deadline) and long (free agency) term.

[harryfromphilly 75]

14 minutes ago, CTMagicUK said:

I'm on record as believing Markelle is the odd man out on this roster but there's a lot of small sample size at play with these stats. A 4 game sample is nowhere near definitive enough to prove that Paolo is better without Markelle. It might well be true over the long term. But it could just as easily be written off as a a Paolo slump to start the season, we need more data. And fortunately (or unfortunately if you're very against Markelle returning to the SL) we'll likely get some this season in time to make a decision on Markelle both short (trade deadline) and long (free agency) term.

THIS I also think we move on long term from Markelle, given what we know at this moment,   but i think he returns to the starting line up when able, and we see.    If what Jon is saying is correct, make changes and lose him at the TD    if not bad but not stellar, lose him this summer and go all in on Black.  Would love to know where his head is at. (Markelle)  Does he still think he can be the starting point guard on a team? Or has he come to realize that his body just wont handle it.  That would be interesting to learn.