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?4thewin

2017-2018 Official Season Discussion Thread

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Murphy13    140
32 minutes ago, ?4thewin said:

Gordon's defense was pretty negatively impacted by Payton.  113 when Payton was on.  105 when he was off 

So Gordon played better defense when other starters weren’t in (not just Payton).  When does that happen? Against bench players.  Ok, so Gordon plays average at best defense against other teams bench players/fringe starters according to metrics.  Fantastic.  If only he wasn’t injury prone we could lock him up with a max contract with that defining skill set.  /sarcasm 

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Magicman28    220
39 minutes ago, ?4thewin said:

Defensive rating is a team defense stat.  So hypothetically if you have 4 guys on the court all doing their job and 1 guy not, the entire team is effected equally by the poor defense of the 1. 

In this case Payton has the lowest defensive rating on the team so he's the one skewing numbers negatively for everyone.  

Nba.com has the team on/ off that I've used before but they also have individual on off where you can see player A's stats when player B is on the court and player A's stats when player B is on the bench.  

Which is why i want to look at vucevic. 113.5 when Payton is on the court.  101 when he's off.  It could just be some weird coincidence.  But its worth exploring.  

Yeah trying to make sense on how the stats work.

I think he does well in Phoenix. He needs to be surrounded by shooters so he can penetrate the lane and I suspect as he gets more  of a role with a offense that is controlled by him, his defense will be better.

I think it was mental with him .

 

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?4thewin    1,334
8 minutes ago, Murphy13 said:

So Gordon played better defense when other starters weren’t in (not just Payton).  When does that happen? Against bench players.  Ok, so Gordon plays average at best defense against other teams bench players/fringe starters according to metrics.  Fantastic.  If only he wasn’t injury prone we could lock him up with a max contract with that defining skill set.  /sarcasm 

No.  The team played better defense with Gordon in but not Payton.  That includes minutes against bench players, minutes against starters when Payton wasn't in the game, and minutes against starters when Payton didn't play.  

Payton only played 28.6 mpg for us.  It's not like Vogel had him shadowing the other teams starting point guard.  And it'd be one thing if it was exclusive to great point guards but your point falls apart when the Tomas Satoransky's of the league burn him too.  

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?4thewin    1,334
1 minute ago, Magicman28 said:

Yeah trying to make sense on how the stats work.

I think he does well in Phoenix. He needs to be surrounded by shooters so he can penetrate the lane and I suspect as he gets more  of a role with a offense is controlled by him, his defense will be better.

I think it was mental with him .

 

The problem is phoenix is the worst shooting team in  the league

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41 minutes ago, ?4thewin said:

Defensive rating is a team defense stat.  So hypothetically if you have 4 guys on the court all doing their job and 1 guy not, the entire team is effected equally by the poor defense of the 1. 

In this case Payton has the lowest defensive rating on the team so he's the one skewing numbers negatively for everyone.  

Nba.com has the team on/ off that I've used before but they also have individual on off where you can see player A's stats when player B is on the court and player A's stats when player B is on the bench.  

Which is why i want to look at vucevic. 113.5 when Payton is on the court.  101 when he's off.  It could just be some weird coincidence.  But its worth exploring.  

This how stats can be misinterpreted. Vuch is a good defender without Payton hurting him. Hahahaha that is incredibly wrong. 

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?4thewin    1,334
32 minutes ago, fan for too long 2 said:

This how stats can be misinterpreted. Vuch is a good defender without Payton hurting him. Hahahaha that is incredibly wrong. 

I didn't say vucevic is a good defender without Payton.  I said Payton is a bad defender and its interesting that vucevic has a good defensive rating with Payton off the floor.  And I'd like to see more vucevic in an environment sans Payton to see if its anything. It might be nothing.  

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1 hour ago, ?4thewin said:

No.  The team played better defense with Gordon in but not Payton.  That includes minutes against bench players, minutes against starters when Payton wasn't in the game, and minutes against starters when Payton didn't play.  

Payton only played 28.6 mpg for us.  It's not like Vogel had him shadowing the other teams starting point guard.  And it'd be one thing if it was exclusive to great point guards but your point falls apart when the Tomas Satoransky's of the league burn him too.  

It is not just the stats that prove this but also visual observation.  I wish I could remember who wrote the article I read back in November (I think).  Had to be on Fan Sided, Yahoo, SB nation, etc.  But the author broke down the magic's defense.  He started with Vuc and his defensive deficiencies that put pressure on the other 4 players.  He also said that it was nothing new and other teams had faced similar scenario's  He said it could work if the other 4 players adjusted correctly.  He did mention Gordon, with his athleticism, helped but not as much as he thought it would, because he said Gordon's overall defense was good but his lateral defense was average only.  He went on to say that the real reason the Magic defense failed, with Vuc in the lineup, was  directly due to Payton.  If I remember correctly it was his inability to stop penetration.  More shocking was his assessment on why this was happening since the author said Payton's strength coming out lof college was defense.  He had a simple answer saying it was one of two reasons.  Either Payton was NOT a good defensive PG or he refused to follow his coaches orders.  The author said he was not close enough to know the answer.  Stats show it as ?4thewin shows but this is shocking and pretty revealing from an outside source!

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52 minutes ago, Originalticketholder said:

It is not just the stats that prove this but also visual observation.  I wish I could remember who wrote the article I read back in November (I think).  Had to be on Fan Sided, Yahoo, SB nation, etc.  But the author broke down the magic's defense.  He started with Vuc and his defensive deficiencies that put pressure on the other 4 players.  He also said that it was nothing new and other teams had faced similar scenario's  He said it could work if the other 4 players adjusted correctly.  He did mention Gordon, with his athleticism, helped but not as much as he thought it would, because he said Gordon's overall defense was good but his lateral defense was average only.  He went on to say that the real reason the Magic defense failed, with Vuc in the lineup, was  directly due to Payton.  If I remember correctly it was his inability to stop penetration.  More shocking was his assessment on why this was happening since the author said Payton's strength coming out lof college was defense.  He had a simple answer saying it was one of two reasons.  Either Payton was NOT a good defensive PG or he refused to follow his coaches orders.  The author said he was not close enough to know the answer.  Stats show it as ?4thewin shows but this is shocking and pretty revealing from an outside source!

When your PG doesn't stop the opposing PG from penetrating it affects the defense of the entire team and also creates fouls by slower bigs trying to stop a quick small guy. When I played I hated having to waste a foul on somebody else's man, I needed my fouls to stop my own man when needed.

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Ibn Battuta    108
3 hours ago, Odin said:

Weird though that a PG might have that large of an impact on a team's defense.

The opposing PG brings the ball, calls the plays, sets his teammates up, basically runs the show. If he’s allowed to do whatever he wants then it does fall on the guy guarding him. 

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Odin    39
2 minutes ago, Ibn Battuta said:

The opposing PG brings the ball, calls the plays, sets his teammates up, basically runs the show. If he’s allowed to do whatever he wants then it does fall on the guy guarding him. 

Yeah, but a lot of PGs are not good defenders and they don't impact the team drastically. Augustin is a bad defender for example, yet he isn't destroying the team's defensive ability.

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