Magicman28 295 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 OK. You're finding positives in particular areas of a game we lost badly. I'm not sure that methodology works, but time will tell. I could just as easily say that Payton's refusal to take open 3's led to a traffic jam in the paint and spacing problems, somewhat negating his good stats. Or I could mention Golden State's uncharacteristically sloppy ball handling in the first half as the reason we looked respectable. It's all speculation when you try to pick things out of the game in isolation. We have 36-37 games left so fortunately there is plenty of time to see if any of this stuff translates into real outcomes. I mean we're one of the worse teams playing one of the best. They have arguably all stars at positions 1-4. All you can do is see little progressions. It's not a method it's the way it is when your win and loss record say you suck. To me this year is just like last year. A development year. Playoffs should've never been mentioned. Maybe say "Yeah, playoffs is always a goal because you want to win but as the new coach, I also have to develop these young guys so progression is the main objective." It's not what you wanna hear but it's the truth. AG is playing/developing a new position at the 3. Mario needs some refining. Payton needs to continue to learn how to be consistent. Biz is still young and learning. The Ibaka trade might've signaled a playoff run, that was a mistake however and it doesn't change the fact that really, it's an development year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Murphy13 185 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 No. That's not true at all. The entire reason teams are so eager to draft 18 year olds vs significantly better 22 year olds is due to the significant gap in what they have the ability to improve. Shooting isn't something you have to improve with game experience. It just takes repetition. It is indeed true. Teams draft 18 year olds because if they don't someone else will and they lose the chance to develop a potential talent. They don't want to be at a competitive disadvantage. If teams had their druthers people would be older coming into the league like Marion was. This is undeniable as it has been at the forefront of the recent CBA discussions. 18y/os are less inclined to take as much from professional development than a 19 or 20 y/o would. At the end of the day they both have the same service time at the two highest levels of basketball. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJZFL 619 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 I mean we're one of the worse teams playing one of the best. They have arguably all stars at positions 1-4. All you can do is see little progressions. It's not a method it's the way it is when your win and loss record say you suck. To me this year is just like last year. A development year. Playoffs should've never been mentioned. Maybe say "Yeah, playoffs is always a goal because you want to win but as the new coach, I also have to develop these young guys so progression is the main objective." It's not what you wanna hear but it's the truth. AG is playing/developing a new position at the 3. Mario needs some refining. Payton needs to continue to learn how to be consistent. Biz is still young and learning. The Ibaka trade might've signaled a playoff run, that was a mistake however and it doesn't change the fact that really, it's an development year. How do you measure development? Is it little things you think you see with individual players or is it wins and losses? Can you develop a winning team by losing year after year? If we win fewer games this year than last year, are we "developing" anyway? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 How do you measure development? Is it little things you think you see with individual players or is it wins and losses? Can you develop a winning team by losing year after year? If we win fewer games this year than last year, are we "developing" anyway? New Orleans is 17 and 27. Anthony Davis is averaging 29 points 12 rebounds 2.4 blocks and all of his advanced stats are those of an elite player. is Davis underperforming? or is it just a broken roster, key players missing time, and a lack of depth? We can simultaneously be a terrible team with a few young players showing growth. And it's arguably a better thing that we're losing with growth from Payton and Gordon than if we were winning on the backs of meeks, Green, Watson, and Augustin and Payton and Gordon were playing poorly. because those guys aren't long term options. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJZFL 619 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 New Orleans is 17 and 27. Anthony Davis is averaging 29 points 12 rebounds 2.4 blocks and all of his advanced stats are those of an elite player. is Davis underperforming? or is it just a broken roster, key players missing time, and a lack of depth? We can simultaneously be a terrible team with a few young players showing growth. And it's arguably a better thing that we're losing with growth from Payton and Gordon than if we were winning on the backs of meeks, Green, Watson, and Augustin and Payton and Gordon were playing poorly. because those guys aren't long term options. I don't necessarily disagree with you. I was asking about how you assess development. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 I don't necessarily disagree with you. I was asking about how you assess development. It's kind of player dependent. With Gordon it's adding more skills. With Payton it's hitting his expectations more frequently. With Mario it's growth on defense. And since Mario has started hitting his benchmark more frequently it might be time to raise that bar to more tangible performance. Just like we raised the bar for Gordon from "hit enough threes that people need to guard you" to "make an acceptable amount of your wide open threes" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJZFL 619 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 It's kind of player dependent. With Gordon it's adding more skills. With Payton it's hitting his expectations more frequently. With Mario it's growth on defense. And since Mario has started hitting his benchmark more frequently it might be time to raise that bar to more tangible performance. Just like we raised the bar for Gordon from "hit enough threes that people need to guard you" to "make an acceptable amount of your wide open threes" The problem is you could accomplish all those things and probably a lot of others and still have a very bad team. That's why I have concerns about basing our definition of development on improvement of individual players. You could have players improve every year while the team as a whole gets worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 The problem is you could accomplish all those things and probably a lot of others and still have a very bad team. That's why I have concerns about basing our definition of development on improvement of individual players. You could have players improve every year while the team as a whole gets worse. I think we're talking about different things. The team isn't developing at all. A lot of our performance is just effort based and specific to a few players (green, Vucevic, Biyombo until very recent) or poor fit (meeks playing next to poor defenders in green, augustin and often times Payton). But we can feel good about Payton and Gordon right now and we can feel a little better about Mario. so short term I don't think we have anything to be excited about but long term, if Payton ends up closing out the season well, we can at least feel good about 2 of our starting 5. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJZFL 619 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 I think we're talking about different things. The team isn't developing at all. A lot of our performance is just effort based and specific to a few players (green, Vucevic, Biyombo until very recent) or poor fit (meeks playing next to poor defenders in green, augustin and often times Payton). But we can feel good about Payton and Gordon right now and we can feel a little better about Mario. so short term I don't think we have anything to be excited about but long term, if Payton ends up closing out the season well, we can at least feel good about 2 of our starting 5. Ok. I understand what you're saying now. And again I can partly agree. But I'm still not sure about feeling good about two of the starting five even if Payton finishes the season well. The fact is that there seems to be an inverse correlation between Payton having apparently "good" games and our winning. Payton has been best for the past 15 games or so, arguably our worst stretch of the season so far. As with Vuch, we've seen that consistently good stats don't always translate into being an asset for the team that we can feel good about. So we'll see; it's hard for me to feel great about any of our players right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 Ok. I understand what you're saying now. And again I can partly agree. But I'm still not sure about feeling good about two of the starting five even if Payton finishes the season well. The fact is that there seems to be an inverse correlation between Payton having apparently "good" games and our winning. Payton has been best for the past 15 games or so, arguably our worst stretch of the season so far. As with Vuch, we've seen that consistently good stats don't always translate into being an asset for the team that we can feel good about. So we'll see; it's hard for me to feel great about any of our players right now. we need more data points because out of the last 15 games 5 were wins, a few were games where the team played poorly when Payton was in despite the stats, a few were games where payton played really well only to have the bench play terrible causing the loss, and a few were just bad games by him. the one thing I take away from it though is good/bad/empty/whatever he hasn't had a invisible game in a while. You have to go back 27 games to get to a time where he had fewer than 8 field goal attempts. That was a big thing for him last year. too many 2 for 3, 3 for 5, 4 for 7 games where he didn't make a difference. he's had 12 games in his career with 17+ field goal attempts, 4 of which have occurred in the past 10 days. That's something interesting. They're doing things differently with him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Odin 137 Report post Posted January 23, 2017 we need more data points because out of the last 15 games 5 were wins, a few were games where the team played poorly when Payton was in despite the stats, a few were games where payton played really well only to have the bench play terrible causing the loss, and a few were just bad games by him. the one thing I take away from it though is good/bad/empty/whatever he hasn't had a invisible game in a while. You have to go back 27 games to get to a time where he had fewer than 8 field goal attempts. That was a big thing for him last year. too many 2 for 3, 3 for 5, 4 for 7 games where he didn't make a difference. he's had 12 games in his career with 17+ field goal attempts, 4 of which have occurred in the past 10 days. That's something interesting. They're doing things differently with him. I know this might not mean much, but Payton already has more win shares this year than he had in the entire season of either of his first two years. Kind of interesting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
