MVP Race

[Sabian Jackson 0]

Dwight's team features 8 players that were not on the roster last year (Duhon, Arenas, Hedo, JRich, QRich, Clark, Allen, and Orton), so no, no one could say the Bulls are a lot more different than the Magic.

 

I really don't know where you're going with all this talk of different rosters though, because as I pointed out, my beef is in separating Rose from the pack just because his team faced some difficulty during the season and stayed afloat. Dwight's team suffered just as much difficulty, if not more, and has also stayed afloat. Sorry if the Bulls have a slightly better record, but I don't think 7 more losses in an 82 game season means that Dwight is a level below Rose.

 

Another thing; not to give too much attention to the player of the month awards from Kia, but Dwight was player of the month for Oct/Nov and February. The other two months? December was split by Wade and James and January went to James. If Rose is such a cut above the rest, why hasn't he been acknowledged as the best player in, not the league, but just his conference for a single month this season?

 

I just really feel like the media has been blinded by over achievement in Chicago and it's taken off to a point where people don't even look at the facts and just concede that Rose is MVP. I really hope that everything in the media outlets only represents a small sample of the voters because, while Rose deserves to be in the discussion, I think it's a tragedy that guys who have done more than Rose this year are mere footnotes.

 

I'd be very sceptical to take your "8 new guys" on the magic too seriously, particularly when as I've pointed out before, they play exactly the same way. Orton hasn't even played a game, Allen has very very limited opportunities and Duhon barely features apart from when its a blowout since the trade. Therefore, you should really only say 5 guys that regularly appear, if that. Q Rich was bench-warmer for most of the time since the trade and Hedo has played with Dwight many many times so not exactly that different either. Rose has Deng and Noah who remain from last season. That's basically it. Noah was also out for a good few games leaving him with Deng remaining from last season. You tell me who has had a more consistent team since last season?

 

Another point is that while you could say Dwight has won more POTM awards and therefore deserves it more than Rose, having a few good months doesn't equal the season. If a player consistently plays to a high standard over a season, whilst another player is better than him a couple of months, it doesn't really prove anything. It just proves that for some months, a player was better than another, whilst in other months, the reverse was true.

 

While I agree that Rose isn't miles ahead of anyone, I just think that the Bulls success has been helped dramatically by Rose and his improved play.

 

I read a stat somewhere today (apologies as I can't remember where it was) that said that Rose affects directly approximately 50 points every game for the Bulls. That's over half the teams points. That's pretty impressive if you ask me. Particularly as the replacement would be CJ Watson, who although is decent, would never average 25/8 over a season.

[BMP 424]

It's barely 45, and it's hardly impressive. It's something most ball dominant point guards in the league get done. If anything, it should be higher, but he's not good enough of a passer (keep in mind that he is good, but he's not by any means an elite passer) and isn't efficient enough for that number to be better.

 

 

 

I'm also pretty sure Rose hasn't won a single POTM award.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Particularly as the replacement would be CJ Watson, who although is decent, would never average 25/8 over a season.

 

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That's right, pathetic man-animals.

 

Dwight Howard should not be MVP because Derrick Rose is better than CJ Watson. It's science even you Teegeeackians should understand.

 

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[Bauncey Chillups 288]

So where will Rose rank on the all-time worst MVP list?

[Capo d'Orlando 85]

So where will Rose rank on the all-time worst MVP list?

 

Somewhere next to Dirk's MVP. The Mavericks, like the Bulls, had a great year, Dirk was the best player on the team, but his numbers were nothing special and there were far better players that year.

[Sabian Jackson 0]

It's barely 45, and it's hardly impressive. It's something most ball dominant point guards in the league get done. If anything, it should be higher, but he's not good enough of a passer (keep in mind that he is good, but he's not by any means an elite passer) and isn't efficient enough for that number to be better.

 

 

 

I'm also pretty sure Rose hasn't won a single POTM award.

 

 

Wrong. Only 3 guards (not pgs) have even close to that amount of points affected. D Will, Russell Westbrook and D Rose.

 

Now while Westbrook may have a slightly higher average number, he plays with Durant. Arguably the second or third best player in the league. At least top 5 anyway. Value? Not particularly high when coupled with their record vs the bulls. I also think the Bulls offensive rating should be taking into account. They are something like 25th. That makes his impact "more" important.

 

D Will is on a team that is barely reaching playoffs, as was he before the trade. Again, his chances of winning MVP are very limited.

 

 

Another point I was thinking about today was this:

 

Howards numbers may be more impressive, but I think we would all agree he is head and shoulders above anyone in his position in the league. Noone is even close. This means that maybe his numbers are less impressive given the matchup he faces every single night.

On the other hand, there are at least 10 very good PGs in this league. That title of best PG is open to debate by a long shot. Therefore, considering the matchups Rose deals with, and the effect he has on his team, his numbers could be considered "better".

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Another point I was thinking about today was this:

 

Howards numbers may be more impressive, but I think we would all agree he is head and shoulders above anyone in his position in the league. Noone is even close. This means that maybe his numbers are less impressive given the matchup he faces every single night.

On the other hand, there are at least 10 very good PGs in this league. That title of best PG is open to debate by a long shot. Therefore, considering the matchups Rose deals with, and the effect he has on his team, his numbers could be considered "better".

 

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Only a Teegeeackian bound by a gargantuan amount of Thetans could write this and think they were making a coherent point.

 

Puny man-animal, you have come up with a logic that suggests Dwight Howard is a worse MVP candidate based entirely on the fact that he's so much better than everyone else, the very quality the MVP is supposed to demonstrate.

 

Not only does this logic make absolutely no sense, your stubborn refusal to let go of the crazy logic you've concocted is absolutely pathetic, even for a pathetic sub-creature from Teegeeack.

 

Fleshling, there is simply no analysis that exists, none, that suggests Rose was really the most valuable player this year. He will likely win the award anyways, because his team overachieved, he's in a big market, "he's the new Jordan!" makes a nice story, MASSIVE overrating of Joakim Noah's value, and professional sports journalists are morons who would rather say a team overachieved thanks to their star player than simply admit their preseason preconceptions were just really terrible.

 

He has been badly outplayed by at least 5-7 other players this year, but because several of those teams "underachieved", which really just means again that professional sportswriters thought they'd be really awesome and then blamed the players for not being as good as they thought they'd be.

 

Michael Wilbon asked the question, incredulously, wondering who Rose's second best player was when Boozer and Noah were out. Ignoring for a second that there was no time this season where Noah and Boozer were both out, the answer is Luol Deng. To Wilbon and his ilk, that's proof positive that Rose had no help because Deng sucks, right?

 

Except that Deng is posting 18/6/3 with elite defense. And depending on who you talk to, he might be their fourth best player, even though he'd be the clear #3 on the Thunder, #2 on the Magic, #3 on the Lakers, #2 on the Mavericks, etc.

 

This is why the Galactic Federation values statistical analysis. It has no preconceived biases.

 

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[Sabian Jackson 0]

Ignoring for a second that there was no time this season where Noah and Boozer were both out

 

I give you Dallas Mavericks, 20th January. Bulls win without Noah or Boozer.

 

Also, Washington Wizards, 15th March. Bulls win without Noah or Boozer.

 

Try actually looking things up before you post it....

 

And, to address your other point, when noone is as good as you because the league is weak in a certain position doesn't make you more of an MVP candidate. It makes you less since you're expected to do it. If someone has to compete day in day out against players who are considered as good as you, and you succeed, then you are a much better candidate surely? Why give it to someone who can dominate because noone is good enough, as opposed to someone who can dominate despite other people being good enough?

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

I give you Dallas Mavericks, 20th January. Bulls win without Noah or Boozer.

 

Also, Washington Wizards, 15th March. Bulls win without Noah or Boozer.

 

Try actually looking things up before you post it....

 

And, to address your other point, when noone is as good as you because the league is weak in a certain position doesn't make you more of an MVP candidate. It makes you less since you're expected to do it. If someone has to compete day in day out against players who are considered as good as you, and you succeed, then you are a much better candidate surely? Why give it to someone who can dominate because noone is good enough, as opposed to someone who can dominate despite other people being good enough?

 

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You're right, pathetic man-animal. We should give Rose the MVP because of two games where he was without 2 starters. Dwight, Dirk, Durant and others certainly never had such a game!

 

And you're second point, pathetic sub-creature, is almost too stupid to contemplate.

 

First, Rose doesn't dominate. Statistically, he's the third best point guard in the league, so you're entire argument, that he's dominating superior competition, is untrue and based largely on a bad performance from Deron Williams when he, Williams, had a serious wrist injury that forced him out of games.

 

Also, the league isn't weak at center, and only a truly Thetan-bound man-animal would think it was. The problem is that pathetic sub-creatures like you started watching basketball in the 90s, the peak of the center position, and assume that is the norm and not the exception. Again: you are ruled by your preconceptions, fleshling, and it is pathetic.

 

But again, that's just you ruling your decisions based on reactions to your own preconceptions. You think Rose should be MVP because his team "overachieved" and you believe he was the catalyst. Why you ignore the addition by subtraction of removing the worst coach in the NBA, the addition of a competent coach, the resurgence of Luol Deng on both sides of the ball, the installation of a great defensive scheme, the addition of good defensive role players to mask, among other things, Rose's god-awful defense, and the addition of a 20/10 power forward to a team from last year whose 2 biggest holes were team defense and interior scoring I have no idea, but it's not Xenu's responsibility to teach you how to watch basketball.

 

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[Svanxx 30]

Also for those that somehow want to support Rose's bid for MVP:

 

Rose can get to the line by barely being touched. Dwight gets mugged without getting calls sometimes.

 

Tell me which is easier to be more effective as an offensive player?

[Sabian Jackson 0]

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You're right, pathetic man-animal. We should give Rose the MVP because of two games where he was without 2 starters. Dwight, Dirk, Durant and others certainly never had such a game!

 

And you're second point, pathetic sub-creature, is almost too stupid to contemplate.

 

First, Rose doesn't dominate. Statistically, he's the third best point guard in the league, so you're entire argument, that he's dominating superior competition, is untrue and based largely on a bad performance from Deron Williams when he, Williams, had a serious wrist injury that forced him out of games.

 

Also, the league isn't weak at center, and only a truly Thetan-bound man-animal would think it was. The problem is that pathetic sub-creatures like you started watching basketball in the 90s, the peak of the center position, and assume that is the norm and not the exception. Again: you are ruled by your preconceptions, fleshling, and it is pathetic.

 

But again, that's just you ruling your decisions based on reactions to your own preconceptions. You think Rose should be MVP because his team "overachieved" and you believe he was the catalyst. Why you ignore the addition by subtraction of removing the worst coach in the NBA, the addition of a competent coach, the resurgence of Luol Deng on both sides of the ball, the installation of a great defensive scheme, the addition of good defensive role players to mask, among other things, Rose's god-awful defense, and the addition of a 20/10 power forward to a team from last year whose 2 biggest holes were team defense and interior scoring I have no idea, but it's not Xenu's responsibility to teach you how to watch basketball.

 

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I wasn't saying he deserved it because of those two games, I was simply pointing out that you were wrong to claim that he never had games without them both. Which you were.

 

I agree I was also exaggerating slightly with the dominating part, but he is performing better than you would place him in the list of point guards. Correct me if I am wrong. My point was simply based on highlighting that the strength of the opposition holds some value rather than just raw numbers.

 

Another point I shall make, is that if the league is weaker than it was in the 90s for Center, it is still weaker. Place any Center in the league right now in the era other than Dwight, and you will see an incredibly sub-par Center. Yet another point is that even in that era of peak centers, only 2, maybe 2.5 won the MVP award. (Shaq won it in the 99/00, which is barely the 90s). Jordan won it more times in that era than any number of Centers.

 

Dengs numbers are also the same, if not slightly worse than last season. So your idea of a "resurgence of Luol Deng" is basically wrong. Sorry.

 

You seem to be losing your touch of belittling people on their opinions DOM. That is a shame.

[AcuWill 45]

I wasn't saying he deserved it because of those two games, I was simply pointing out that you were wrong to claim that he never had games without them both. Which you were.

 

I agree I was also exaggerating slightly with the dominating part, but he is performing better than you would place him in the list of point guards. Correct me if I am wrong. My point was simply based on highlighting that the strength of the opposition holds some value rather than just raw numbers.

 

Another point I shall make, is that if the league is weaker than it was in the 90s for Center, it is still weaker. Place any Center in the league right now in the era other than Dwight, and you will see an incredibly sub-par Center. Yet another point is that even in that era of peak centers, only 2, maybe 2.5 won the MVP award. (Shaq won it in the 99/00, which is barely the 90s). Jordan won it more times in that era than any number of Centers.

 

Dengs numbers are also the same, if not slightly worse than last season. So your idea of a "resurgence of Luol Deng" is basically wrong. Sorry.

 

You seem to be losing your touch of belittling people on their opinions DOM. That is a shame.

From a neutral party, your argument does not remotely stand up to DoM's. You simply cannot handle the dissonance of his points make, so you ignore his valid points and self justify yourself based on points that are not at the crux of his argument.

 

For example, you have concocted an argument of peak centers whee they haven't won MVP awards, Jordan won more, [insert] random worlds that have nothing to do with the point [end], to self justify your stance that has been founded on a faulty position. It is easier to create consonance by ignoring DoM's points, make up superfluous arguments and pat yourself on the back, than to admit you are in fact wrong.