Religion

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

You don't put anyone in harm and you don't bother anyone. Those students should have already known they were going to get homework and decided to go anyways, so they put themselves in that position. You didn't go to some random person and tell them to finish that assignment.

 

 

It really is simple. In a perfect world, if no one is bothering anyone else, what moral code will you really need? I've already stated before that these are circumstances in which I'd like to see the world in but know won't happen, probably ever. Not everyone is a good person and a few can ruin it for many. It still doesn't hurt to try it.

 

Even in a perfect world you still need a moral code.

 

Anyways, Osprey has really got you with these last few back and forths. You can't have guidance from people on one side then say they shouldn't be allowed to tell people what to do on the other side. You should probably clarify your position.

 

Since we are speaking about morals, can we put an end to the "morals are derived from religion, if there's no religion there are no morals/ethics" idea. I dont think anyone has brought it up yet but somebody brought it up one time in one of my classes one time and it's always bothered me.

 

I remember the exact instance when I learned about right and wrong. It bothered me so much afterward its one of my earliest memories.

 

When I was 3 i went into a Cash n' Carry (convenience store in CT) with my mom. She bought soda or milk or something and I asked if she could buy me a Peppermint Patty. She refused because it would spoil my appetite for dinner. They were right at eye level for me so when my mom wasn't looking I took a peppermint patty and hid it in my pocket. When we went back into the car and she was belting me into a toddler car seat and found the peppermint patty.

 

She yelled at me and explained that I stole from the man at the register. That he uses that money to feed his family and I was taking that away from him. She asked how I would like it if somebody stole my favorite toy and never gave it back. Then she made me take the peppermint patty back to the man, apoligize, then my mom asked him if he would like to call the police on me (obviously there were some winks and nudges from my mom to get the guy to play along). He said he wouldn't as long as I promised to never do it again. But he was going to let the police know about me, and if I ever take something that's not mine ever again the police will know and come take me to jail.

 

I cried all the way home and the lesson stuck with me forever.

 

That has nothing to do with religion. You learn morals/ethics from empathy, not necessarily from religion.

[jec 427]

Moral code is a social evolutionary trait. It helps humans to cooperate.

[Osprey 199]

Even in a perfect world you still need a moral code.

 

Anyways, Osprey has really got you with these last few back and forths. You can't have guidance from people on one side then say they shouldn't be allowed to tell people what to do on the other side. You should probably clarify your position.

 

Since we are speaking about morals, can we put an end to the "morals are derived from religion, if there's no religion there are no morals/ethics" idea. I dont think anyone has brought it up yet but somebody brought it up one time in one of my classes one time and it's always bothered me.

 

I remember the exact instance when I learned about right and wrong. It bothered me so much afterward its one of my earliest memories.

 

When I was 3 i went into a Cash n' Carry (convenience store in CT) with my mom. She bought soda or milk or something and I asked if she could buy me a Peppermint Patty. She refused because it would spoil my appetite for dinner. They were right at eye level for me so when my mom wasn't looking I took a peppermint patty and hid it in my pocket. When we went back into the car and she was belting me into a toddler car seat and found the peppermint patty.

 

She yelled at me and explained that I stole from the man at the register. That he uses that money to feed his family and I was taking that away from him. She asked how I would like it if somebody stole my favorite toy and never gave it back. Then she made me take the peppermint patty back to the man, apoligize, then my mom asked him if he would like to call the police on me (obviously there were some winks and nudges from my mom to get the guy to play along). He said he wouldn't as long as I promised to never do it again. But he was going to let the police know about me, and if I ever take something that's not mine ever again the police will know and come take me to jail.

 

I cried all the way home and the lesson stuck with me forever.

 

That has nothing to do with religion. You learn morals/ethics from empathy, not necessarily from religion.

 

Precisely, and your mom did a great job in teaching you that lesson.

 

Basically what I'm getting at is that even without Religion, we know what is right and wrong. Emmannuel Kant broke it down into something he called the Categorical Imperative.

 

 

"Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."[1]

 

Meaning that you should act in a way that if everyone on Earth were to act the same way, you would be cool with it.

 

Basically, the Golden Rule. Even without Religion, we know the Golden Rule to be applicable in any situation, ever, anywhere, at anytime.

[Osprey 199]

Moral code is a social evolutionary trait. It helps humans to cooperate.

 

Or one could argue that as beings with the spark of the Divine, we are inherently born with that. We are the only beings on Earth who have "evolved" that trait.

[jec 427]

Or one could argue that as beings with the spark of the Divine, we are inherently born with that. We are the only beings on Earth who have "evolved" that trait.

 

If we are born with the trait, what use do we have for the religion as a moral guideline?

[Osprey 199]

If we are born with the trait, what use do we have for the religion as a moral guideline?

 

Even if you're born with that trait, do you still do what's right in every situation? Eventually, if you ignore it enough, it goes away for good. Religion helps strengthen that voice inside you telling you what is right and what is wrong and brings you together with others in the process.

[Jareth Cutestory 678]

Even if you're born with that trait, do you still do what's right in every situation? Eventually, if you ignore it enough, it goes away for good. Religion helps strengthen that voice inside you telling you what is right and what is wrong and brings you together with others in the process.

 

Except for folks who use religion as a justification to do harm to others. Then what they feel is "right" is actually wrong by the masses. And this happens in every denomination. So yeah, that doesn't work pal.

[jec 427]

Even if you're born with that trait, do you still do what's right in every situation? Eventually, if you ignore it enough, it goes away for good. Religion helps strengthen that voice inside you telling you what is right and what is wrong and brings you together with others in the process.

 

By what, promising eternal bliss and threatening us with eternal damnation?

[BMP 424]

Even in a perfect world you still need a moral code.

 

Anyways, Osprey has really got you with these last few back and forths. You can't have guidance from people on one side then say they shouldn't be allowed to tell people what to do on the other side. You should probably clarify your position.

 

 

It's not a perfect world if people still need to be told what's right and what's wrong, but that's just semantics.

 

 

There's a fine line between telling people what they should believe and teaching. The world would already be a better place if every church taught the bible, explaining the passages, and left it up to the people to get the most out of it, but stopped to treat it as if it was the true word of god and those who didn't follow would burn in hell. I'm not saying churches don't this, as I'm sure many do (a former manager of mine actually became a pastor and he was a lot like that), but how often do you see or hear people criticizing others for not doing things "the right way" and actually shaping their lives and others to satisfy their beliefs.

 

 

 

I think religion was created not for moral guidance, but to create fear in those who want to break those moral codes.

[VCplusD12 91]

It's not a perfect world if people still need to be told what's right and what's wrong, but that's just semantics.

 

 

There's a fine line between telling people what they should believe and teaching. The world would already be a better place if every church taught the bible, explaining the passages, and left it up to the people to get the most out of it, but stopped to treat it as if it was the true word of god and those who didn't follow would burn in hell. I'm not saying churches don't this, as I'm sure many do (a former manager of mine actually became a pastor and he was a lot like that), but how often do you see or hear people criticizing others for not doing things "the right way" and actually shaping their lives and others to satisfy their beliefs.

 

 

 

I think religion was created not for moral guidance, but to create fear in those who want to break those moral codes.

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said except this last sentence.

 

I believe that Jesus truly believed that he was the son of God (why the hell would he take that amount of punishment?) and wanted to guide people, not inflict fear in anyone who was against him - creating Christianism. NOW, it was USED by several organizations in a wrong way, in a way that created fear in other people, inhumanly punished people, etc. And it's still used in that way, I HATE the treatment that the Pope receives, both people worshipping him as the luxury around his character. The gold that he wears and expensive Mercedes, while people across the whole world suffer from hunger and all these real problems that church should be fighting.

 

Same thing with the Muslim religion, it was not created for inflicting pain but a small but powerful percentage of it do it.

[KillingInTheNameOf 63]

I think religion was created not for moral guidance, but to create fear in those who want to break those moral codes.

 

Organized religion was born out of corruption & the power to control, that's a historical fact. Religion or faith is born out of mans basic needs and that appears evident in the fact even the most primative societies develop spiritual beliefs.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I'd say the start of christian corruption was via Constantine