Save C. Lee...

[Murphy13 185]

As far as the 'shot' in question by Lee...I tend not to harp on it too much because I am sure that he went home and cried about it for hours that night.

 

It wasnt an easy shot but he still should have made it. The two things I see wrong with the shot is first that he held on to the ball too long-why did he double clutch in the first place? He didnt need to, he was still on his way up and the ball didnt appear to be slipping...Second, they teach you even as a kid to put that off the glass, it looks like he panicked and just chucked it up there when he had the angle to put it up off the glass where Pau wouldnt have been allowed to reach(for fear of goal tending). So, easy shot-no. Boneheaded-yes.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

As far as the 'shot' in question by Lee...I tend not to harp on it too much because I am sure that he went home and cried about it for hours that night.

 

It wasnt an easy shot but he still should have made it. The two things I see wrong with the shot is first that he held on to the ball too long-why did he double clutch in the first place? He didnt need to, he was still on his way up and the ball didnt appear to be slipping...Second, they teach you even as a kid to put that off the glass, it looks like he panicked and just chucked it up there when he had the angle to put it up off the glass where Pau wouldnt have been allowed to reach(for fear of goal tending). So, easy shot-no. Boneheaded-yes.

 

There was .6 seconds. He after the shot there was enough time for it to hit the backboard before the red light went on.

 

How can you double clutch in like .3 seconds?

[Murphy13 185]

quote:

Originally posted by Lewis4thewin:

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

As far as the 'shot' in question by Lee...I tend not to harp on it too much because I am sure that he went home and cried about it for hours that night.

 

It wasnt an easy shot but he still should have made it. The two things I see wrong with the shot is first that he held on to the ball too long-why did he double clutch in the first place? He didnt need to, he was still on his way up and the ball didnt appear to be slipping...Second, they teach you even as a kid to put that off the glass, it looks like he panicked and just chucked it up there when he had the angle to put it up off the glass where Pau wouldnt have been allowed to reach(for fear of goal tending). So, easy shot-no. Boneheaded-yes.

 

There was .6 seconds. He after the shot there was enough time for it to hit the backboard before the red light went on.

 

How can you double clutch in like .3 seconds?

 

I dont follow your comment or question.

[jec 427]

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

it looks like he panicked and just chucked it up there when he had the angle to put it up off the glass where Pau wouldnt have been allowed to reach(for fear of goal tending).

 

Funny thing is Pau did goal tend.

[NittanyBuc 757]

I'm sorry, but when Vince is brought in to CLOSE OUT GAMES and he can't even hit 1 of 2 free throws, there's plenty of reason to rip on him. The fact that this year was his year to put all of the haters to rest and he epically failed is what bothers me

[BMP 424]

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

Defensive rating and win shares are individual stats, team wins are not a variable in the equation first of all. So it doesnt matter if Lee's team won less, that has no bearing on his defensive rating since it takes in individual stats. Next, why are you comparing Lee's past numbers to Redick's current numbers? Ok, so shaq was better than dwight in 2005, therefore he is better than Dwight today-right? Furthermore, team wins may not be in the equation, but you know what is? Minutes played...and you are comparing seasons where Lee played nearly twice as many minutes as Redick-and STILL only finished with .9 more win shares total. Thats why it is only fair to compare this seasons numbers to eachother because it puts both players in a similar role. The fact that Lee played 2/3's of the time last year would suggest that he should have had way better numbers than Redick, but he didnt. This year atleast they are closer, although Lee still played over 500 more minutes than Redick.

 

I like how you discredit the Defensive rating because it goes against what you are saying, and then bring up defensive win shares and compare Redick's first 3 seasons combined to Lee's first two season when in fact Lee played more minutes this season alone than Redick did his first 3 combined. Yet you fail to mention that Redick's Defensive Win Shares are still higher than Lee's this year despite playing fewer minutes. In fact, Redick's Win Shares from this year nearly equal Lee's complete Win Share total from both his seasons in the League.

 

So, not only does Redick have about an equal overall DRtg but he also has a higher Defensive win shares, overall win shares, higher PER, all with considerably fewer minutes to work with. Where is your argument-aside from in the past?

 

Furthermore I dont know what you are trying to say comparing Keyon's Drtg to jwills/Nelson's. Of course Keyon's is higher, he is a good defender-jwill and jameer are not, what is your point?

 

 

Defensive ratings and win shares may be calculated for individuals, but it has A LOT to do with what team that player is playing for. It is not the same as FG% or assists, it is VERY dependent on which team that player plays for. THAT'S why I used Lee's numbers from the year he had Dwight Howard behind him, and used Redick's numbers this year, his best year in the league so far. Lee played 25mpg that season and Redick played 22mpg. Close enough. It was only a one-year span, NOT 5 years as you're trying to compare.

 

 

A lot of those stats (such as PER) can be inflated with less minutes played. Anthony Johnson's PER in the playoffs was 24.9, higher than Howard's.

 

 

I guess you don't understand how DRTg, but the higher it is, the "worse" you are. Keyon's DRTg this year with the New Jersey Nets was 113, which is 7 points higher (or since it discredits the player, 7 points lower) than Nelson's and JWill's. I discredited DRTg because you're comparing two players on different poles. One is in the top two best defensive teams in the league, the other plays for the team with the 5th worst DRTg.

 

 

The best way to compare both is to use Redick's best season and Clee's season when he played for the Magic (a ONE year season when he was a ROOKIE). I'm not discrediting defensive win shares because it goes against what I'm saying, I'm discrediting this year's because, as stated before, one guy played for nearly the best defensive team in the league and the other played for nearly the worst defensive team in the league. Defensive Win shares are calculated not only by a player's minutes, but also team possessions, average league PPS as well as Defensive Rating, which is also another number that is highly dependent on the team you play for. That's also where the Keyon comparison came from. It's hardly even an argument (unless, of course, you take the Murphy route) of whether or not Keyon's a better defender than Jameer/JWill, yet because he was playing on such an awful team (especially defensively), his DRTg dropped (or in this case, rose). Does that mean he's not as good of a defender? No, it means he didn't have Dwight Howard behind him.

 

THAT's why I used CLee's rookie season numbers while playing for the Magic. I don't know how many times I'm gonna have to say that, but I guarantee this won't be the last.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

technically win shares are attempting to show how many wins a player contributed to for his team (with an average margin of error of 2.74 wins for the entire team [3.41 r^2])

 

so it does matter that Lee's team won less as its hard to contribute to wins that never occurred.

[VinceCarter4life 69]

quote:

Originally posted by emory889:

quote:

Originally posted by ThuglifeJ:

sorry but the lee fanboys defending lee's 2 missed layups is like carter fanboys defending his 2 missed freethrows.

 

theres really no excuse at the professional level except choke.

 

So, a fading, adjusting in mid-air, under the backboard layup attempt has the same difficulty as 2 free throw attempts? I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously but I have to wonder if even you believe this pile of crap that you just typed.

 

quote:

Ignored post by VCdaCarter posted July 25, 2010 01:22 AM Show Post

 

Ah, bliss.

 

ahh this could just be me but I find a layup pretty **** simple...same goes for free throws..

 

Lees alley oop layup may have been difficult because he blanked out for a bit (it was not adjusting in mid air) he could have put that off the glass easily in but he held on to it for some reason and just threw it off like he forgot how to play the game.

just like Carters two missed free throws he freaked out and looked like he forgot to play the game.

 

and I was including Lees missed wide open layup previous to the final second miss. Where he pushed his fingeroll too hard off the back rim.

 

NONETHELESS LIKE I SAID THEY WERE BOTH HUGE ****ING CHOKES AND HAVE NO EXCUSE FOR MISSING THEY WERE BOTE CHOKE MOMENTS.

 

one huge difference tho is that the Magic would have won the game if Lee hit one of the layups while the Magic were still trailing if Vince hits both free throws.

[PEC 0]

Lee did prove one thing this season he is not a great 3 point shooter. The last time I checked that was really important to the Magic in stretching the defense so Dwight gets more openings. 33% just does not cut it.

 

As for defense the difference between the two is not all that much. Though Redick is a better team defender imo.

 

But this is much ado for nothing. The Nets will keep him because he is cheap. Will Lee start this upcoming season who knows. Considering that the Nets are not all that deep in good shooters he has a better chance.

 

BTW I remember reading that players who lead in steals are not actually rated the highest on their respective teams for defense. AI had a high ratio for steals, but is a terrible defender. So if you are saying that Lee is better because he steals the ball more often then you lose that case about who is the better defender hands down.

 

The reason that found is that the players who steal the ball more often took more chances to get the ball and ended up not defending.

So yes you can get the ball stealing fiend or you can get defense. I would rather take the player who defends instead of a player who takes too many chances just to steal the ball.

[jec 427]

quote:

Originally posted by PEC:

Lee did prove one thing this season he is not a great 3 point shooter. The last time I checked that was really important to the Magic in stretching the defense so Dwight gets more openings. 33% just does not cut it.

 

He shot closer to 34% with the Nets (.338) and with us he was over 40%. It works both ways; having Dwight as long as other shooters spreading the floor would give Lee easier looks.

 

That said, I doubt he's coming back and he's way overrated here.

[jack l j 0]

i know things are slow but jj/clee debate is old news. we can not change the past. you have to look at tomorrows value overall to the magic. it is clear jj wins hands down.

[jec 427]

quote:

Originally posted by jack l j:

you have to look at tomorrows value overall to the magic. it is clear jj wins hands down.

 

Not really. Lee could probably provide a similar level of offense as JJ while playing better defense, and he would be cheaper.