The Official Rashard Sucked vs. Boston thread ($$$)

[E27 33]

quote:

Originally posted by Miller4Prez64:

UPDATE:

 

This thread still sucks.

 

More info to come.

Inside information ftw

[SmackDaddy 30]

quote:

Originally posted by emory889:

I'm really not sure how a Sports Illustrated article is an update. Its essentially the same piece as the other articles with a very predictable Otis Smith quote.

 

Really? I was absolutely shocked that it seems that Otis has labeled the highest paid player on the Magic roster, his monster free agent acquisition from three years ago, and the 9th highest paid player in the league, essentially a 4th option role player.

 

I was also mostly shocked that Shard labels his own performance as non-bothersome just because the team has been winning. I'm only mostly surprised because I guess this is why some people like Shard and some people don't. You either (for some reason) appreciate his passive, and sometimes lazy attitude for the perceived betterment of the team, or you dislike him for not having the killer instinct and determination that most guys at the top of the NBA pay scale have.

 

One way or another, it seems even Otis is confirming that there is a reason to dislike Shard, if you're of the opinion that I am - that Shard is not a leader, is not a top-tier guy, is not assertive or talented enough to take over a game, and is certainly not a multi-faceted player that can take over other areas of a game even when he is no longer a top scoring option.

 

10ppg during the month of March on 39% shooting. Where is Kramer with his claims that Shard has broken out of his slump?????

[FloridianaJones 8]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

quote:

Originally posted by emory889:

I'm really not sure how a Sports Illustrated article is an update. Its essentially the same piece as the other articles with a very predictable Otis Smith quote.

 

Really? I was absolutely shocked that it seems that Otis has labeled the highest paid player on the Magic roster, his monster free agent acquisition from three years ago, and the 9th highest paid player in the league, essentially a 4th option role player.

 

I was also mostly shocked that Shard labels his own performance as non-bothersome just because the team has been winning. I'm only mostly surprised because I guess this is why some people like Shard and some people don't. You either (for some reason) appreciate his passive, and sometimes lazy attitude for the perceived betterment of the team, or you dislike him for not having the killer instinct and determination that most guys at the top of the NBA pay scale have.

 

One way or another, it seems even Otis is confirming that there is a reason to dislike Shard, if you're of the opinion that I am - that Shard is not a leader, is not a top-tier guy, is not assertive or talented enough to take over a game, and is certainly not a multi-faceted player that can take over other areas of a game even when he is no longer a top scoring option.

 

10ppg during the month of March on 39% shooting. Where is Kramer with his claims that Shard has broken out of his slump?????

 

and we come back to crux point... that those who still hate on Rashard have yet to get over his giant contract.

 

You could say Otis made a huge mistake, dwell on it and start to judge his recent play with bias or you could say what I say which is, we made it to the finals last year, and my boy Rashard was a HUGE key in that.

 

I have no indication that Rashard wont show in the big games come the playoffs(as ive pointed out). If he doesn't then I will gladly eat my words and shut my mouth about him til 2010-2011.

 

oh and btw... every player not named Dwight is a role player as I see it, which is Otis and SVG's perspective as well.

[GhostAnime 50]

DA KILLA INSTINCT IN BASKETBALL

[SmackDaddy 30]

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

and we come back to crux point... that those who still hate on Rashard have yet to get over his giant contract.

 

That actually has very little influence from my perspective. Can i completely ignore it? Nope. But do I use his contract to judge him solely by? Nope.

 

The fact is, Shard is performing at levels below that of both his backups and a number of other backups around the league, while also below that of nearly all other starters in the NBA.

 

A reality like that needs no dollar amount attached to it to pass judgement.

[cmor42180 0]

how do some of you call yourselves fans? seriously... I never post here and the stupidity and "facts" are just pathetic... anyone remember last year rashard had a slump and then he became the MVP when we needed him most, we would not have been where we were last year without him... also last season he had a lot more touches with Hedo now with Vince he gets much less so you cant score as much when you have 5 shots a game... and I can tell you, Rashard wants to win, he will do what it takes to win so go ahead and bash him now you will eat those words come April... then you will have Rashard Appreciation threads and the same haters will be saying how they "knew he would do this" internet know it alls... smdh

[FloridianaJones 8]

quote:

Originally posted by KillingInTheNameOf:

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

this is all besides that fact that I'm no where near ready to give up my lunch for the +/- stat. Basketball is not as cut and dry of a statistical sport like say baseball. you could put a monkey in the lineup but if he plays 95% of his minutes when Dwight Howard is on the floor, he's going to have a positive +/- .

 

TRUE

 

But, D12's +/- stats w/the monkey would almost surely be less than w/o the monkey, clearly indicating the the monkey was like a small fuzzy piece of kryptonite.

 

The +/- stat is not a holy grail, but it highlights trends. The larger the data sample, the more meaningful the stat.

 

law of large numbers, yes... but, there are too many external factors in how many points a team gives up at any given time in basketball.

 

My intuition kicks in with this because I see the rankings of individual players and even combinations players and they don't match with what my instincts would tell me are the most valuable.

 

Dwade isn't even in the top 25 of +/-. which would indicate that players +/- are very reliant on team play, pretty logical. Then you look and seen Anderson Varejao, 2nd in the league in +/-, probably because he plays majority of his minutes with Lebron. Good hustle and contributions but not the second most valuable team player in the league. Rashard on the other hand has been playing some minutes with the second unit because SVG wants either him or VC out there with them.(all it takes is a 5-10 pt burst while he's out there with the second unit to kill his +/- for the night)

 

It also says Ray Allen and KG are both more valuable than Rajon to the Celtics. Anyone who has watched the C's lately would admit their intuition tells them otherwise. KG can barely get off the ground anymore and Rondo has clearly been their spark this year but has a low in +/- maybe because he see's majority of his minutes against top PG's and starting 5's or/and because he's the only pure PG on his team, on top of other intuitive reasons.

 

im still not sold on this stat. It seems like one of those stats that is only valuable if interpreted right.

[FloridianaJones 8]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

 

My opinion is, Shard is performing at levels below that of both his backups and a number of other backups around the league, while also below that of nearly all other starters in the NBA.

 

corrected.

 

did i mention Rashard leads our team - top 3 team D in the league - in steals.

[SmackDaddy 30]

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

Rashard on the other hand has been playing some minutes with the second unit because SVG wants either him or VC out there with them.(all it takes is a 5-10 pt burst while he's out there with the second unit to kill his +/- for the night)

 

Wouldn't VC's stats be adversely impacted the way that you feel Shard's have?

[bhnole 153]

To be fair Smack has always been consistent in his opinion of Shard.

 

I really don't care how big a Magic Homer you are, the reality is that Shard is overpaid. He gets top 10 money when his talent is closer to top 20-30 when he is on. He is a two time All-Star (over 12 years in the league) making Kobe money. No matter how you look at it, he is overpaid.

 

That being said, Shard is a big reason we were able to take out the Cavs in the playoffs. He was also a big reason we lost to the Lakers in the finals.

 

He creates a match up problems for most teams in the league and makes it hard when opponents try to double down on Dwight, but struggles when teams don't double and his if forced to create his own shot.

 

Personally, I wanted Vince that summer who could have been had for less money (which could have gone to retaining Hedo). But Shard is a good fit for this team although an overpaid one.

[SmackDaddy 30]

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

 

My opinion is, Shard is performing at levels below that of both his backups and a number of other backups around the league, while also below that of nearly all other starters in the NBA.

 

corrected.

 

did i mention Rashard leads our team - top 3 team D in the league - in steals.

 

You selected a single statistical category out of dozens to support your view? Ok. W/E

 

Hollinger's PER results ofr PF's

 

Ryan Anderson 26th in the NBA - 16.25

Brandon Bass 27th in the NBA - 16.20

Rashard Lewis 45th in the NBA - 13.86

[KillingInTheNameOf 63]

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

quote:

Originally posted by KillingInTheNameOf:

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

this is all besides that fact that I'm no where near ready to give up my lunch for the +/- stat. Basketball is not as cut and dry of a statistical sport like say baseball. you could put a monkey in the lineup but if he plays 95% of his minutes when Dwight Howard is on the floor, he's going to have a positive +/- .

 

TRUE

 

But, D12's +/- stats w/the monkey would almost surely be less than w/o the monkey, clearly indicating the the monkey was like a small fuzzy piece of kryptonite.

 

The +/- stat is not a holy grail, but it highlights trends. The larger the data sample, the more meaningful the stat.

 

law of large numbers, yes... but, there are too many external factors in how many points a team gives up at any given time in basketball.

 

My intuition kicks in with this because I see the rankings of individual players and even combinations players and they don't match with what my instincts would tell me are the most valuable.

 

Dwade isn't even in the top 25 of +/-. which would indicate that players +/- are very reliant on team play, pretty logical.

 

The +/- stat is indeed a team stat, it is not a universal stat. To compare the +/- values of players from different teams, you would have to compare their +/- stats against their TEAM +/- baselines, AND then compare them to each other to produce any type of meaningful comparision. Even then, it's still far more meaningful to compare players with a common baseline (players on same team).

 

quote:

Then you look and seen Anderson Varejao, 2nd in the league in +/-, probably because he plays majority of his minutes with Lebron. Good hustle and contributions but not the second most valuable team player in the league.

 

What this really says is AV has the 2nd biggest impact on the leagues best regular season team.

 

quote:

Rashard on the other hand has been playing some minutes with the second unit because SVG wants either him or VC out there with them.(all it takes is a 5-10 pt burst while he's out there with the second unit to kill his +/- for the night)

 

Shard has played 1611 of his 1915 minutes w/D12 or 85% of his minutes. Which happens to be a team high.

 

For comparision, Jameer 83%, VC 80%, Barnes 76%, MP 71%, J-Will 66%, JJ 62%, RA 56%, Bass 43%...

 

quote:

It also says Ray Allen and KG are both more valuable than Rajon to the Celtics. Anyone who has watched the C's lately would admit their intuition tells them otherwise. KG can barely get off the ground anymore and Rondo has clearly been their spark this year but has a low in +/- maybe because he see's majority of his minutes against top PG's and starting 5's or/and because he's the only pure PG on his team, on top of other intuitive reasons.

 

1st, let take the KG example. KG has missed games & been limited in others. Is it really a surprise that Boston is better w/KG than w/o? Jameer had the highest +/- on the Magic for the same reason last season.

 

You are also mischaracterizing the results of the +/- stat. It's not that Ray Allen is the 2nd most valuable player on the team, it's that his presence on the court has the 2nd biggest impact on Boston's success. Barnes has had a similiar impact on Orlando's success. Where stats like PER reward volume shooters, this stat value the goal of the game & players like Bruce Bowen & Raja Bell.