FloridianaJones

I agree with the whole "mega" offseason thread protocol now... its worthless. As an avid fan of the magic (but also someone with small bouts of free time), i use to come here to get rumors, news and content before anywhere else --- and relatively quickly... but sifting through that massive thread that is just a salad of topics to find the few scenarios that have been talked about in the last few days for Dwights trade is literally a nightmare. I break into cold sweats. just clicking random page numbers hoping you find the topic from a few days ago you want to read about. you guys (MODs) should seriously reconsider your strategy of consolidation. ie, I would love to stop in here, click on a thread that says "Top Rumored Dwight Trade Scenarios", see what everyone's compiled, maybe make a comment or two and then get back to my work. i keep holding out hope and stopping in every once and a while. I mean, theres not even a thread about the player we selected in the draft. I'm sure thats 40-60 pages deep in the offseason thread---but i guess if I want to see Ill have to make a lucky guess in hopes I pick the right page first try.

We're all on to you Stephen A Smith and your underground agenda to get Dwight in NJ. It's amazing how relentless he is.... and pretty disgusting. and morons just eat that 'ish up... That said, Otis shoulda been fired a year or more ago... incredibly incompetent. THANK GOD HE'S DONE WRECKING THIS TEAM! we actually might have a draft pick in the next few years now... SVG, great XO's guy but terrible composure. No coach that has EVER won a ring did it with the lack of poise that SVG has---typically they won it with the opposite.

Last post, promise. No where did I EVER discount the use of statistics. NO WHERE! The point I've been making is... he proved that Ellis was inefficient on GS, which I AGREE HE WAS!! Then went so far to say he, 'sucked'. I say, not so fast. He might be inefficient on GS, but get him a good coach, different system and an elite player to play with and those flashes of brilliance he often shows (the guy is an athletic freak) might show through a lot more (likewise, mistakes might decline). Apologies for any offense, I'm just trying to get my point across.

Spin what I said all you want, not what I'm trying to point out DOM. Saying a player (that mind you has demonstrated an ability to make exceptional basketball plays) 'sucks' and everyone else who disagree's is an 'idiot' (both radical points of view, but you are entitled) - based solely on advanced statistics, with no inclusion of any sort of outside analysis of his coaching history, system, teammates, non-number based intel - is hasty. Bust out statistics all you want, but there's more to it with basketball. Had you not taken such an extreme interpretation of your statistics for the sake of theatrics, we probably could have agreed that Monta Ellis still has to prove himself. Again where we disagree is that he 'sucks' and has no chance of ever contributing to an elite team. And @treehorn, i met your condescending tone with condescending tone, for that I apologize - getting derogatory is unnecessary. (and the whole UF comment should pale in comparison to the ego's being tossed around this discussion.) You all, moderators included, don't have to worry about me because I'm already having rushing sensations of self-loathing having spent so much of my time today arguing about MONTA ELLIS, wow. I'm finished with this. Go Magic, I hope we keep Dwight (though it's depressingly like a high school soap opera at this point). I hope you enjoy the rest of your week.

your more than welcome to pull out your calculator. i look at the box score and watch basketball games bud.

Whats funny is I've very clearly laid my point out for you and you have done nothing but say, 'you don't get it, lol'. And yes i read the article... "Numbers don't lie, but they tell a lot of half-truths. We have been raised to think that numbers represent absolute fact, that in a math class there is one and only one correct answer. But less emphasis is put on the fact that in the real world numbers don't convey any information without units, or some other frame of reference. The blurring of the line between the number and the quantity has left us vulnerable to the ways in which statistics can deceive us. By poorly defining or incorrectly defining numbers, contemporary audiences can be manipulated into thinking opinions are fact.***" the information w/o units ... THAT I HAVE ALREADY LAID OUT CLEARLY!! (despite you saying that I got my education in vain, or that 'I don't get it') hah - Monta Ellis, despite his mediocre or 'sucky' advanced statistics, has been poorly coached throughout his basketball life (I could get into more, AGAIN, but I think i've wrote enough already.) I'll come back and once more if you present some sort of interesting, attractive argument as to why 'I don't get it.' ----- There really was only one guy that use to be worth spending time getting into discussions on this forum with, KillingintheNameof... who knows if he still lingers. Knowing he would probably disagree with me as well... we got into some good ones. ***DOM has very skillfully and attractively used statistics to CONVINCE all of you that his opinion of Monta Ellis is fact. When it is opinion.

Nah I get it, I do. I just disagree - thats what you don't get. 'Statistics don't lie!!!" - my economics professors (my major) from UF would tell you, sure, just like some kids are 'angelic' and NEVER lie to their parents... http://scienceblogs.com/worldsciencefestival/2010/08/85_of_statistics_are_false_or.php .... Advanced BB statistics are a GREAT measuring stick, but not some omniscient solution to 'how everything works'. (Baseball IS a bit different. but Ellis doesn't swing bats does he...?) And in the curious case of Monta Ellis, who has come straight out of high school and been subsequently BURIED under bad coaching in a system that has taught him bad habits.... I watch him mercifully and see what he is capable of and do not think he 'sucks'. Just off hand, the guy is lightning quick and has above average awareness on the court - defensively and offensively... again **** you can't teach. You guys can spend all your time looking up and understanding, 'win shares' and points per attempt' - while ignoring the intangibles, the chemistry, the coaching, potential. The guy still is only 26.

First off, ill take guys who can finish strong in transition all day, he is one of those. Second, I don't see the same thing you do when I watch his play... I see a guy that can attack the paint very well off the dribble, in numerous different game sets and has shown that he can find the open guy with multiple games on his game log with 10+ assists and 16+ games this year with 7 assist or more. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/monta_ellis/game_by_game_stats.html If you look at his biggest issue on his game log, it's the fact that he goes 'cold' shooting the ball (as a reciprocal, he goes OFF some nights with fantastic shooting percentages from behind the arc). If you also look at his stats, the guy has played very inconsistent minutes this year. That is a thing that wouldn't so much happen under Stan once he fit into a role. Not to mention, Stan isn't the kind of coach that puts up with players consistently shooting 'contested 3's' - that would end quickly. could he attempt 14-15 shots a game and still have an effective FG%? no body can answer that because he hasn't played that role yet in his career. thus, tis hasty to toss him in the class of 'sucky' NBA players. 5th reiteration of my point, it's not to say he's amazing or All-Star worthy, its to say he doesn't 'suck'. A player that sucks to me is a player that has no possible hope of contributing, much less starting on a championship level team in any way shape or form, ever in his career - and based on Ellis' talent level, the good games I've seen from him and the GREAT plays i've seen him make - I don't think he belongs in that class. And no player for that matter should be tossed into that class based solely on some micro statistics that are accumulated while he played under one, non-championship caliber team, with multiple mediocre coaches, in offensively focused systems.

Erroneous, I brought up stats in my first post. My argument here is not, 'Ellis is the saving grace, hidden gem in the league waiting to be the next perennial All-Star, part-cornerstone to a NBA franchise.' My argument from the get go, is that saying he flat out 'sucks' based solely on pure shooting statistics is extreme and hasty. As well as taking a lot away from this game that we all love. A game that is based way more on stats, rather chemistry and coaching as well... my case in point, the beauty of the underdog in March Madness. Let's say we had acquired Ellis, my quote was that it would still be a gamble (better than a coin flip, but not a sure thing). Honestly, seeing the kinds of plays he is capable of making - things you can't teach - I personally would take the risk knowing how Stan can be at coaching defense and smart playing. Agree to disagree on that. Again, don't lose my point here on this... saying he 'sucks' by looking at only his pure shooting stats from one stint with one organization/system is hasty. That's all.

@kramerthesecond I don't even know where to start with your response. I listed one play, that doesn't mean there is only one play, it means I do not have time to go list out all of his phenomenal plays-like that quick pass(from David lee), 360 reverse layup he did last week... that's talent you can't teach!- if i made a list I'd be an NBA scout, and that I am not. And since were on the subject of scouts, if scouts looked only at 'stats' they would be out of a job. That's plain and simple. And list one player that has improved under Stan... Mmmkay.... Maybe Hedo when he won MIP a few years back. Again I could list more but will spare my time. (and yes we can both agree Hedo is no longer a capable player anymore, so dont even think about bringjng that up, not the point here.) Don't be so standoffish and please stop asking retorical questions, then pausing as if your waiting for my instantaneous response to drop from the heavens so you can then pretend like you threw it back in my face when it didnt magically appear. That's just uncomfortable for us all to read. Sent from my iDevice

Saying Ellis sucks is a rash interpretation of statistics only. Making the assumption that anyone who thinks otherwise clearly doesn't 'watch' is ironic because I'm pretty sure I watched a play by Ellis last week in which he came over and made a pretty high level weak-side block on Blake Griffin. That was a defensive play that NO ONE in our back court would have anticipated and executed. Just saying... Basketball doesn't correlate to 'Moneyball' and statistics aren't God in this sport. There is a lot more to interpret—chemistry, coaching, system. Do I look at Ellis' stats and think they jump off the page, no. There are a few things we could agree on—one, he does take a large volume of attempts and to say he could cut back on his number of shots and still be efficient is a gamble, however it's just that, a gamble—not a 'sure thing' as you have stated. Additionally, those stats don't reflect how his game might change under a defensive minded coach like Stan and with a VERY dominant big man like Dwight. That's the beauty of this sport—how team oriented it is. To say he 'sucks' is honestly a hasty, purely statistical based judgement and I completely disagree. With the flashes (don't you just LOVE that word...?!!!) of elite talent he shows, I think it's enough to say that if this guy got in a winning environment, with good defensive minded coaching and superstar teammates—and still being 26—his stats could improve and PER move up in the mid-to-lower twenties. Although, in light of the Bucks trade, this is now irrelevant. I'll be back in another 2 years to comment on your 15,000 post. FJ - (from the grime of LA) [also if you haven't noticed I'm a big fan of the 'em dash', though I am way too cavalier to actually use it properly.]

I'd love to send a big bro with an LA Lakers jersey to punch the author of this article in the face. Then he'd probably remember why we shouldn't retire Shaq's number. Retiring a players jersey to me is the way for an organization to acknowledge the loyalty and commitment a player had to progressing the franchise forward. Shaq did not do that for us.

and thats were you failed. Unfortunately thats were our team fails biggest in this matchup as well.

quote: Why break up our team for Paul when we could use Gortat, Bass, or Vince to get a dominate SF? With this whole superteam, friends pooling together idea that might have been started... if we were to get Paul, I don't see how we couldn't be considered in the list of favorites to land Carmelo Anthony next summer. I can't even fathom the rivalry in a scenario like that...

quote: Originally posted by wowski: quote: "He wants out," said the person, who has been briefed on Paul's strategy but spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss it publicly. "He wants to play with another superstar. He wants to follow LeBron's model of teaming up with other great players." Paul's list of preferred destinations consists of the Knicks, Magic and Lakers, and members of his inner circle already have sent word to the Hornets of his desire to be traded to one of those teams, sources say. If Paul has his way, he's played his last game in a Hornets jersey. now.... what do we have against the knicks and the lakers? considering that the knicks and lakers don't really have any great trade assets like us.... this rumor is ALIVE again. Gortat, Vince, Nelson for Paul, posey/okafor... not a pipe dream I think