Arroyo should be reinstated as our back up PG for the playoffs

[MagicWinMagicWin 0]

Please god no arroyo

[ufballer86 0]

the only good thing that will come when the season ends is that arroyo will officially not be a part of the magic anymore, and maybe, just maybe, all these arroyo fans will go clutter the message board of the next team he rides the bench for

[JJ_I_TRUST 0]

Some things I notice. Specially in the New Orleans game.

 

Arroyo did a superb job guarding CP3 but for some reason SVG didn't wanted for Arroyo to run te offense(no trust in him), even D12 wouln't pass the ball to Carlos when getting a deffensive rebound and waited fot Hedo to come and get the ball.

 

HE clearly has to be the Back up PG.

[ibonedteribell 0]

quote:

okay, the point of this thread is to glorify Carlos and how great the team is with him...

 

what we're TRYING to say is, these so called "significant minutes" can be quite skewed sometimes...

 

A: we dont even know how you define "significant minutes"...you may consider 10 mins significant for all i know...

 

B: Opponent...Carlos can go out there and play 35 mins and drop 25 with 9 dimes and no TOs vs. Miami and that means absolutely nothing...this team is good enough where we could have Foyle run the point and still beat Miami by 20...

 

 

what im saying is, give me some examples of games vs. legit opponents where Arroyo played "significant minutes" and really contributed to the team's victory...

 

and i will be glad to acknowledge it...

This is not a glorification thread just a reality aknowledgement of a players impact on a team, you like it or not. You argument can also be applied to any other PG during the year. The statistical influence of what team and whom he played individually is randomly balanced out. The stats only point out the prejudiced position of those, that call Carlos a good third PG back up and a mediocre second back up. The advantage of Dooling in defense is real but not always the decisive factor in game which is usually lack of offensive rebounds and neither Dooling or Arroyo will make a difference here. Arroyo will never thrive and produce for the team unless allowed to do creative playmaking. Time afeter time Carlos has filled the starting role for the team in an excellent manner and then rapidly goes back to the bench. He can start but not back up.LOL

[Rodriguez 0]

quote:

Originally posted by ibonedteribell:

quote:

okay, the point of this thread is to glorify Carlos and how great the team is with him...

 

what we're TRYING to say is, these so called "significant minutes" can be quite skewed sometimes...

 

A: we dont even know how you define "significant minutes"...you may consider 10 mins significant for all i know...

 

B: Opponent...Carlos can go out there and play 35 mins and drop 25 with 9 dimes and no TOs vs. Miami and that means absolutely nothing...this team is good enough where we could have Foyle run the point and still beat Miami by 20...

 

 

what im saying is, give me some examples of games vs. legit opponents where Arroyo played "significant minutes" and really contributed to the team's victory...

 

and i will be glad to acknowledge it...

This is not a glorification thread just a reality aknowledgement of a players impact on a team, you like it or not. You argument can also be applied to any other PG during the year. The statistical influence of what team and whom he played individually is randomly balanced out. The stats only point out the prejudiced paosition that call Carlos a good third PG back up and a mediocre second back up. The advantage of Dooling in defense is real but not always the decisive factor in game which is usually lack of offensive rebounds and neither Dooling or Arroyo will make a difference here. Arroyo will never thrive and produce for the team unless allowed to do creative playmaking. Time afeter time Carlos has filled the starting role for the team in an excellent manner and then rapidly goes back to the bench. He can start but not back up.LOL

 

good post ibone. I'm with you guys, Carlos shoud be the back up pg.

[Purchase 0]

wuts up, I know I havent been here in a while but I was at the knicks game yesterday, and let me tell you the magic just didnt show up. SVG is just being stupid by leaving Arroyo in the bench when your other 2 pq are just getting smoked and left behind by Jamal and Nate. Seriously the chemistry couldnt be worst yesterday. The reason why Carlos is not playing has to be personal it cant be because of how he is playing. I noticed everytime they called timeout Carlos didnt even got up the bench it was like he knew he wasnt playing at all.

 

another thing I found out of place was when he called JJ to go in and just seconds before he was about to get in he changed his mind and called him back and never played in the whole game. And Pat seriously was the worst player on both teams.

 

If there were olympics of suckiness Pat would break the all-time record

[Captain Hi-Top 791]

quote:

Originally posted by alex30:

quote:

Originally posted by echo4papa:

quote:

Originally posted by alex30:

here is my 2 cents first of all i dont think dooling should be taking out of the rotation at all if not move him to his position wich is shooting guard just leave meer and ca as the point guards and thats it.also eventhough is not in the subject,sorry about this carlos but i have to make my point here,this is very bad coaching you need to tell me that garritty can do a better job on the boards than gortat,foyle and augie,hell since the problems rigth now are rebs then try howard and foyle on the court at the same time with hedo,shard and nelson.theres so many things he can try and thats why i say this coach must be doing crack.

 

The game plan is to spread the floor with outside shooters. Can you honestly say that Gortat or Augustine could do this better than Pat?

 

here we go again you dont quit ha since when garrity is a point guard thats either meer,or ca job to spread the floor but here we go again with your nonsense posts.

 

 

note;we dont need garrity for his shooting i think everyone here will agree with me that we had plenty shooters.dont contradict yourself you making yourself look very bad,you said we struggle on the boards wich i agree.

 

Sometimes you might do well to put aside your dislike for me and actually read and think about my comments.

 

Our offense is predicated on the inside prescence of Dwight, and the outside shooting of the rest of the squad. TO put a guy on the floor with no respectable outside shot gives the other team a 'free man' to double team with.

 

If you put Gortat or Augustine into the game in place of Cook (instead of Garrity), they could camp out on the 3 point line without a man on them because of their distinct lack of outside shooting.

 

I don't care who or how good a point guard is, they alone can not spread the floor. If a team does not resepect a guys outside shot, they will simply use that man to double on Dwight without significant penalty.

 

Wether you like it or not, Pat is active on Defense (I didn't say he was effective, just active), he boxes out his man (or tries to at least) and does his best to grab rebounds on defense. He also has range from beyond the arc (slipping in his later years of course, but did you watch the Cleveland game?).

 

You may think we had 'plently of shooters' on the floor, but the second you put a guy like Gortat in the game, it makes things significantly easier for other teams as far as defense is concerned.

 

 

But what do I know, apparently I just make nonsense posts.

 

 

 

Iboned:

 

The problem here is that, on a regular basis, Dooling provides better defense than Carlos or Jameer.

 

Both Carlos and Jameer are better at running the offense, and thus, when Jameer is injured Carlos starts. If Dooling were a better pg, then he would start in place of Jameer and Carlos would come off the bench.

 

Dooling provides something that neither Carlos or Jameer bring to the game on a regular basis and has won the job of backup pg for this reason. Is it odd? For sure. We might be the only team in the league that does this, I don't know.

 

 

 

As far as the 'stats' and CarlosDarwin are concerned...

 

They do not support the argument on their own. There is to much left to the imagination to draw a conclusion upon. Several people have made this point and asked for a more thorough analysis, only to be dismissed and ridiculed because they don't blindly accept the position of the OP.

 

Make no mistakes, the intent of the OP is to be lauded for sure, but his argument is not solid. As someone else already said in this thread, go deeper in your analysis, provide more information, really prove your point, don't just quote some stats that may or may not lend it credence.

 

Sure, you've had a couple people post crap like 'Carlos sucks' or 'Carlos ruins team chemistry', but you've done a good job of simply ignoring that crap. Don't dismiss people like Mr T or Your Fat Pat who are nto dismissing your point, only asking for more information, asking for you to solidify your theory.

 

Is this an easy task? Perhaps not. Time consuming? For sure. You might even have to go back and review the shot by shot portion of each Carlos game to see if his 'significant' minutes came at a time when the game was well at hand, or if the game was close and he kept the Magic on top. Imagine how you can strengthen your theory once you collect this information.

 

You have several people clamoring for more. People that are not discounting your theory, only asking for proof instead of speculation. It's up to you if you want to take the leap and provide this information. Up to you how committed you are to proving your point.

[ibonedteribell 0]

quote:

Originally posted by echo4papa:

quote:

Originally posted by alex30:

quote:

Originally posted by echo4papa:

quote:

Originally posted by alex30:

here is my 2 cents first of all i dont think dooling should be taking out of the rotation at all if not move him to his position wich is shooting guard just leave meer and ca as the point guards and thats it.also eventhough is not in the subject,sorry about this carlos but i have to make my point here,this is very bad coaching you need to tell me that garritty can do a better job on the boards than gortat,foyle and augie,hell since the problems rigth now are rebs then try howard and foyle on the court at the same time with hedo,shard and nelson.theres so many things he can try and thats why i say this coach must be doing crack.

 

The game plan is to spread the floor with outside shooters. Can you honestly say that Gortat or Augustine could do this better than Pat?

 

here we go again you dont quit ha since when garrity is a point guard thats either meer,or ca job to spread the floor but here we go again with your nonsense posts.

 

 

note;we dont need garrity for his shooting i think everyone here will agree with me that we had plenty shooters.dont contradict yourself you making yourself look very bad,you said we struggle on the boards wich i agree.

 

Sometimes you might do well to put aside your dislike for me and actually read and think about my comments.

 

Our offense is predicated on the inside prescence of Dwight, and the outside shooting of the rest of the squad. TO put a guy on the floor with no respectable outside shot gives the other team a 'free man' to double team with.

 

If you put Gortat or Augustine into the game in place of Cook (instead of Garrity), they could camp out on the 3 point line without a man on them because of their distinct lack of outside shooting.

 

I don't care who or how good a point guard is, they alone can not spread the floor. If a team does not resepect a guys outside shot, they will simply use that man to double on Dwight without significant penalty.

 

Wether you like it or not, Pat is active on Defense (I didn't say he was effective, just active), he boxes out his man (or tries to at least) and does his best to grab rebounds on defense. He also has range from beyond the arc (slipping in his later years of course, but did you watch the Cleveland game?).

 

You may think we had 'plently of shooters' on the floor, but the second you put a guy like Gortat in the game, it makes things significantly easier for other teams as far as defense is concerned.

 

 

But what do I know, apparently I just make nonsense posts.

 

 

 

Iboned:

 

The problem here is that, on a regular basis, Dooling provides better defense than Carlos or Jameer.

 

Both Carlos and Jameer are better at running the offense, and thus, when Jameer is injured Carlos starts. If Dooling were a better pg, then he would start in place of Jameer and Carlos would come off the bench.

 

Dooling provides something that neither Carlos or Jameer bring to the game on a regular basis and has won the job of backup pg for this reason. Is it odd? For sure. We might be the only team in the league that does this, I don't know.

 

 

 

As far as the 'stats' and CarlosDarwin are concerned...

 

They do not support the argument on their own. There is to much left to the imagination to draw a conclusion upon. Several people have made this point and asked for a more thorough analysis, only to be dismissed and ridiculed because they don't blindly accept the position of the OP.

 

Make no mistakes, the intent of the OP is to be lauded for sure, but his argument is not solid. As someone else already said in this thread, go deeper in your analysis, provide more information, really prove your point, don't just quote some stats that may or may not lend it credence.

 

Sure, you've had a couple people post crap like 'Carlos sucks' or 'Carlos ruins team chemistry', but you've done a good job of simply ignoring that crap. Don't dismiss people like Mr T or Your Fat Pat who are nto dismissing your point, only asking for more information, asking for you to solidify your theory.

 

Is this an easy task? Perhaps not. Time consuming? For sure. You might even have to go back and review the shot by shot portion of each Carlos game to see if his 'significant' minutes came at a time when the game was well at hand, or if the game was close and he kept the Magic on top. Imagine how you can strengthen your theory once you collect this information.

 

You have several people clamoring for more. People that are not discounting your theory, only asking for proof instead of speculation. It's up to you if you want to take the leap and provide this information. Up to you how committed you are to proving your point.

Echo, very reasonably put, which Carlos will do and is working on it, yet many of you can also analyze and chip in. I dont think this will change one way or another the coachs decision for he has his style of playing set up around the 3 point offense initially and then Turk at the end to finish off and take care of playmaking.

[You're Fat, Pat! 98]

quote:

Originally posted by echo4papa:

Sure, you've had a couple people post crap like 'Carlos sucks' or 'Carlos ruins team chemistry', but you've done a good job of simply ignoring that crap. Don't dismiss people like Mr T or Your Fat Pat who are nto dismissing your point, only asking for more information, asking for you to solidify your theory.

 

Is this an easy task? Perhaps not. Time consuming? For sure. You might even have to go back and review the shot by shot portion of each Carlos game to see if his 'significant' minutes came at a time when the game was well at hand, or if the game was close and he kept the Magic on top. Imagine how you can strengthen your theory once you collect this information.

 

You have several people clamoring for more. People that are not discounting your theory, only asking for proof instead of speculation. It's up to you if you want to take the leap and provide this information. Up to you how committed you are to proving your point.

 

 

thank you kindly

[Arroyo fan 0]

Blah...blah...blah

 

Blah...blah..blah.............

 

 

Different day some old Shet!!!!

 

Come on guys, get beyond this!

 

As the last post said, coaches decision is made no matter what.

[SmackDaddy 30]

This arguement is nothing new here, and it only gets magnified while considering Jameer's performance the last two games, combined with Arroyo's solid play in Jameer's absence.

 

Jameer plays a very solid game in a convincing victory against Cleveland one night, and the next night looks very pedestrian.

 

9 ast and 0 TO against Cleveland with some very respectable defense, then 1 ast and 4TO with no defense at all in back to back nights.

 

This is the main, very valid criticism of Jameer. One game he looks like the PG we need, the next night he looks like he needs time in the NBADL.

 

Now, I've been fingered as not being much of an Arroyo fan, but that was last year. This year I believe Carlos' shot selection has been much more conservative, and his defensive intensity has been much more consistent than Jameer's.

 

Unfortunately, this team as a whole and the rotation are suffering from Otis' poor decision to extend his hand selected PG of the future before that player had proven that he was worthy of being anything more than the backup PG of the present.

[Mr Charisma 0]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

This arguement is nothing new here, and it only gets magnified while considering Jameer's performance the last two games, combined with Arroyo's solid play in Jameer's absence.

 

Jameer plays a very solid game in a convincing victory against Cleveland one night, and the next night looks very pedestrian.

 

9 ast and 0 TO against Cleveland with some very respectable defense, then 1 ast and 4TO with no defense at all in back to back nights.

 

This is the main, very valid criticism of Jameer. One game he looks like the PG we need, the next night he looks like he needs time in the NBADL.

 

Now, I've been fingered as not being much of an Arroyo fan, but that was last year. This year I believe Carlos' shot selection has been much more conservative, and his defensive intensity has been much more consistent than Jameer's.

 

Unfortunately, this team as a whole and the rotation are suffering from Otis' poor decision to extend his hand selected PG of the future before that player had proven that he was worthy of being anything more than the backup PG of the present.

Good summation, Smack. Couldn't agree with you more.

 

While I agree with the premise of this thread, I acknowledge that this is probably not a logical option this late in the year.

 

Personally, I believe if Otis had not sunk all that money into Jameer earlier in the year, that Carlos would have been the starting PG by the all-star break. Unfortunately, neither of them are very consistent. Jameer seems to live in extremes more. His best is better than Carlos' best, and his worst is worse than Carlos' worse. And, Keyon, for all his hustle and hard work that I appreciate, is simply a sub-par PG.