For all the blame everything on the coach people, here's my take.

[ball junkie 277]

I'll try to make it short and to the point.

 

I've participated in organized bball my whole life, finishing after 4 years at a small college. My freshman season I averaged 11 points a game as a shooting guard. I increased that each season until my senior year when my average topped out at 27 points a game.

 

My coach played junior college ball in California. He was a good player and extremely intense. A power forward. Very explosive personality wise. I never saw that side of him. When he moved his family to Florida he became a "christian". I'm not trying to run christians down cause I am one. But he became very mellow and passive personality wise.

 

I basically had to motivate myself. Since I was already wired like that it wasn't difficult. My freshman class had about 4 or 5 good recruits who were also like me, self-motivated to win and willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. I would frequently say to myself, "man I wish he would get on some people's butt sometime. And that included me too".

 

I think if you asked my freshman class partners they would tell you this, "a lot of our success as a team came from 'our' will to win and not so much from the coach's motivation or X's and O's capability". Point blank, he was not a great coach. All the improvement I made as a player and we made as a team was because we were hungry as individuals. We hated losing!

 

I'm not trying to say Brian Hill is blameless in all this mess. But I am glad Otis came out in the papers and challenged guys to play hard and with a sense of urgency. It can be done. I know. Let's hope the Magic players start playing with more fire beginning tonight.

 

p.s. My senior year we finished 18-7 in the regular season and went deep into the playoffs before losing mostly against schools that were much bigger than we were.

[ball junkie 277]

I'll try to make it short and to the point.

 

I've participated in organized bball my whole life, finishing after 4 years at a small college. My freshman season I averaged 11 points a game as a shooting guard. I increased that each season until my senior year when my average topped out at 27 points a game.

 

My coach played junior college ball in California. He was a good player and extremely intense. A power forward. Very explosive personality wise. I never saw that side of him. When he moved his family to Florida he became a "christian". I'm not trying to run christians down cause I am one. But he became very mellow and passive personality wise.

 

I basically had to motivate myself. Since I was already wired like that it wasn't difficult. My freshman class had about 4 or 5 good recruits who were also like me, self-motivated to win and willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. I would frequently say to myself, "man I wish he would get on some people's butt sometime. And that included me too".

 

I think if you asked my freshman class partners they would tell you this, "a lot of our success as a team came from 'our' will to win and not so much from the coach's motivation or X's and O's capability". Point blank, he was not a great coach. All the improvement I made as a player and we made as a team was because we were hungry as individuals. We hated losing!

 

I'm not trying to say Brian Hill is blameless in all this mess. But I am glad Otis came out in the papers and challenged guys to play hard and with a sense of urgency. It can be done. I know. Let's hope the Magic players start playing with more fire beginning tonight.

 

p.s. My senior year we finished 18-7 in the regular season and went deep into the playoffs before losing mostly against schools that were much bigger than we were.

[~O~ 565]

I think that Brian Hill's coaching has already messed them up so much that the players have given up.

 

Ex: Hedo Turkoglu gets hot and a minute later is taken out of the game. Afterwards, the opposition goes on a 9-0 run to tie the game.

 

A coach making those kind of decisions will make you want to give up. Thats pretty much the cause and effect in my opinion

[SmackDaddy 30]

At least this gives us a glimpse into how you've formulated your opinion.

 

Now, to play devil's advocate...

 

What if your coach was the opposite of mellow? What if he was a loud mouth, overly critcal, hyper egotistical maniac that demanded that you and your teammates play a style of basketbal that did not feel natural. What if he coached the exact opposite to everything that you had grown up learning and enjoying? What if you sat on the bench during your first 3 seasons because he felt you should "earn your playing time".

 

What if he was Brian Hill? An unproven, iron fist coach that is a tyrant in practice, a demon on the sideline, and is undeniably perfect in every way.

[The Solution 0]

At the end of last year Brian Hill was forced to become passive as the new players acquired from Detroit did not have adequate time to learn Brian's system. The team did nicely as you recall.

 

The problem is when the General takes over.

[ball junkie 277]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

At least this gives us a glimpse into how you've formulated your opinion.

 

Now, to play devil's advocate...

 

What if your coach was the opposite of mellow? What if he was a loud mouth, overly critcal, hyper egotistical maniac that demanded that you and your teammates play a style of basketbal that did not feel natural. What if he coached the exact opposite to everything that you had grown up learning and enjoying? What if you sat on the bench during your first 3 seasons because he felt you should "earn your playing time".

 

What if he was Brian Hill? An unproven, iron fist coach that is a tyrant in practice, a demon on the sideline, and is undeniably perfect in every way.

 

As I mentioned in the opening some of us were craving for him(my coach)to get in people's faces to no avail.

 

I got pissed when my coach took me out. When I went back in I played harder and tried to do what the coach wanted cause I wanted to stay on the floor.

 

As far as feeling natural in a style of play I just loved the game playing any style. And we did. Change styles that is. I always tried to please the coach but I was ever the agressor so he left me out there more often than not. I think Brian has proven that with Trevor. A young guy that gets minutes cause he'll run through a wall.

 

Again, success can be achieved in spite of the coach if the will is there. I firmly believe that.

[SmackDaddy 30]

So at what point this year have our players won despite the coach?

[magicfreak#1 0]

That's nice junkie you are a very motivaded guy, But we are talking about the nba, and a time period where the coach has an assistant coach for everything. The player's job is to go out and execute, NOT to motivate his team mates. True that some players just have this quality, which is what we should be looking for in the free agent market, but It is the coach's job to motivate. The Coach's job to motivate, if the coach at this level has a job it is to motivate the players. If someone is slacking then fine play one of the eager rookies, that will hustle his buns off, but that hasn't happened either. This is a coaching problem, and the coach is a COWARD for not addressing it as his problem when the GM called out his players, It is also the coach's job to protect his men, jameer, D12, Tbattie, G hill,) think about this in the case of D12, people are actually saying that a 21 year old should be manning up and taking responsibility for this?????, he hasn't even learned to drink yet???? and Jameer too???? honestly how much leadership do you want from a couple of guys that arn't 45 if you add their age together. that is ridiculous!!!!!

You can't be much more of a coward than to let a couple of boys take the rap for your incompetance!!!!

Did I say it is the coach's job to motivate????

[bhnole 153]

I would have less of a problem with Brian's "tough love" as Dwight calls it and sideline meltdowns, if his player rotations and schemes made any sense.

 

His reluctance or inability to make adjustments before, during or between games baffles me.

 

LB is just as much a tyrant as Brian Hill, but he is a brilliant X and O's guy. The problem is he can't stay very long anywhere before his personality wears thin on everyone. Brian on the other hand is no where near the X and O's guy LB is to balance out his over the top persona.

 

I agree a coach can be too nice, just look at Johny Davis. The players liked him but seemed to have little respect for his authority.

 

We seemed to have gone to both extremes with these last two coaches, but still have yet to find one that is a top notch X and O's coach. Can we please find something in between?

[ball junkie 277]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

So at what point this year have our players won despite the coach?

 

Early in the season as you know. I think everyone would have to agree that the effort has not been there lately. Bobcats game prime example.

 

Otis and all these team meetings being publicized and criticizing the players and challenging their manhood. I for one like it. Are the players gonna step up or fold.

 

Again, I don't care who the coach is where there's a will there's a way.

 

Come on Smack, do you honestly think Brian wants to lose and is micro-managing to achieve that purpose.

 

When a player is on the court "he" is in control of his contributions and effort.

 

Hill ain't gonna jerk someone out if he can consistently produce.

[magicfreak#1 0]

If you think about it most of the games we won were desite the piss poor coaching effort.I think that our team wins by out husteling the opponents, and does not play to the strong suits of the players. but to turn this around on you how many games have we won due to a great coaching effort?????

 

Or Better yet how many games have we gone in to the 4th quarter with a suitable lead, only to watch it melt away under the watch of that crazy 3rd team rotation???, Actually I think most of the melt downs were 3rd quarter but the point is the same.

[SmackDaddy 30]

quote:

Originally posted by magicfreak#1:

That's nice Smack you are a very motivaded guy, But we are talking about the nba, and a time period where the coach has an assistant coach for everything. The player's job is to go out and execute, NOT to motivate his team mates. True that some players just have this quality, which is what we should be looking for in the free agent market, but It is the coach's job to motivate. The Coach's job to motivate, if the coach at this level has a job it is to motivate the players. If someone is slacking then fine play one of the eager rookies, that will hustle his buns off, but that hasn't happened either. This is a coaching problem, and the coach is a COWARD for not addressing it as his problem when the GM called out his players, It is also the coach's job to protect his men, jameer, D12, Tbattie, G hill,) think about this in the case of D12, people are actually saying that a 21 year old should be manning up and taking responsibility for this?????, he hasn't even learned to drink yet???? and Jameer too???? honestly how much leadership do you want from a couple of guys that arn't 45 if you add their age together. that is ridiculous!!!!!

You can't be much more of a coward than to let a couple of boys take the rap for your incompetance!!!!

Did I say it is the coach's job to motivate????

 

Why are you caalling me out? Everybody on this board knows I am front row center when it comes to criticizing this coach. I'm assuming you meant to respond to Junkie's post.

 

quote:

Otis and all these team meetings being publicized and criticizing the players and challenging their manhood. I for one like it. Are the players gonna step up or fold.

 

Again, I don't care who the coach is where there's a will there's a way.

 

Come on Smack, do you honestly think Brian wants to lose and is micro-managing to achieve that purpose.

 

When a player is on the court "he" is in control of his contributions and effort.

 

Hill ain't gonna jerk someone out if he can consistently produce.

 

Ok. Let me see if I can explain this with conviction without being inconsiderate to your point.

 

The two best stretches that this team has experienced were at the end of last year when B Hill admitted that he scrapped his plan, and the beginning of this season when you just stated you believed the players were winning in spite of the coach. If this is true, how can the players be held responsible for the losses? They can't be expected to continually win despite the mis-instruction of their coach. They can't continually be expected to dedicate maximum effort to a failed strategy. They can't continually be expected to overcome the natural mistakes that players are going to make through the course of competition combined with the unexplainable and recurring mistakes made by their coach. They can't continually go out on the court and play with pride when their effort alone isn't enough to ensure victory.

Think about how frustrating that would be as a player. Every night, no matter the opponent, each player has to compete beyond his potential and perceived ability to have a shot at scoring a W. All this because the coach refuses to or isn't capable of making adjustments, proper substitutions, etc, etc, etc (fill in any one of the many things that Hill gets criticized for).

 

I will compare this situation to an abusive marriage. At first the bride is thrilled to have found the man of her dreams. She keeps a spotless home and cooks fantastic meals. Then the groom exposes his abrasive side, first with verbal remarks that are demoralizing. Then he inexplicably begins to abuse her physically.

The house isn't kept as clean anymore. The meals aren't as tasty. She no longers spends as much time primping because she isn't convinced that she wants to look good for her man. These are issues that prompt additional abuse. Until eventually the wife becomes a shell of her former self and no longer feels compelled to dedicate one extra ounce of effort to achieve the ultimate goal of marital bliss.

 

I bring this analogy up, one because I always try to think about comparitive situations that can shed light on a subject by viewing it in different yet relative terms, two because I really do see our players acting like they no longer care about exceling because of the abuse that B Hill has dished out and their disbelief in his ability as a coach.

 

This team can't be expected to keep winning depsite the errors made by their coach. And they certainly shouldn't be blamed for packing it up (although I think it's dispicable as a fan) when the coach doesn't present any alternative plans that would demonstrate that he has an understanding of how the players feel or how they could best succeed.

 

I don't think that the coach deserves all the blame, but he sure as hell deserves the brunt of it.

 

Posts of mine in different threads that relate:

 

When a movie bombs, who is at fault, the academy award winning actor that was cast to play the part, or the writer and director for composing a crappy screenplay with a crappy plot and crappy special effects?

 

I definitely believe the majority of the team's problems are coaching related. However, to watch this team play without pride for several months now and to see young players that are being given the opportunity of a lifetime (Jameer & Darko), I can't help but think that the players are at fault too. Now if the players are at fault, and these are the same players that our management trumpeted as "the next young group of championship contenders", than our management is to blame for compiling and falsely advertising this roster full of inconsistent, ineffective, slackers.

 

Ultimately there's plenty of blame to go around. I just can't stand when some fans are blind to the substantial blame that B Hill deserves.