Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 The talk that the role traditional centers are dying in 'today's NBA' is a fallacy. It's just so rare to have a game-changing center that teams don't have to game plan for it usually. If a generational-type talent traditional center came along he would dominate the league and the talk would cease. Yeah but isn't that kind of the point? The role of traditional centers dying? A new dominant center in the mold of hakeem or shaq are game breakers. They'd dominate every era. But the pervis ellison, vlade divac, rony seikaly, rik smits, Christian laettner type centers would be detrimental in today's nba. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 I think the goal should always be to get the best player possible, whatever position they play. The issue is that between Dwight and the current batch of centers, (and between Shaq, Tim Duncan (who basically played center the second half of his career), and Dwight) there weren't any center talents that you could build around. That doesn't mean the center as a force is dead, just that the talent wasn't there. The role of the center will continue to change, just as all positions have changed over time. But that doesn't mean you cannot build around the position- coaches and GMs just need to change their approach. Yeah, but the entire team building philosophy in the 80s and 90s was extend the game, get to the free throw line, dump it into the post. Offenses were built around using movement to get guys closer to the rim. constantly moving closer to the rim on possessions. So you almost had to build around a center and the philosophy "never trade a big for a small" came into play. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Odin 137 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 Yeah but isn't that kind of the point? The role of traditional centers dying? A new dominant center in the mold of hakeem or shaq are game breakers. They'd dominate every era. But the pervis ellison, vlade divac, rony seikaly, rik smits, Christian laettner type centers would be detrimental in today's nba. I agree that a "traditional" center is likely dead- but Optimist seemed to be questioning the validity of building around a center at all in this day and age. I don't know if any of the players you listed were foundation players for their teams which were built around. And the argument could probably go that "traditional" point guards, "traditional" shooting guards, "traditional" small forwards, and "traditional" power forwards are no longer really functional in our day and age either. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Odin 137 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 Yeah, but the entire team building philosophy in the 80s and 90s was extend the game, get to the free throw line, dump it into the post. Offenses were built around using movement to get guys closer to the rim. constantly moving closer to the rim on possessions. So you almost had to build around a center and the philosophy "never trade a big for a small" came into play. To Optimist's point, how many teams have successfully built around a center since the 90s? You have us with Dwight, and the Spurs with Duncan, if you consider him a center. Maybe Detroit, if you see them as having been built around Ben Wallace, but that is pretty arguable. He can correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to be the point Optimist was trying to get to, which I think is fair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 To Optimist's point, how many teams have successfully built around a center since the 90s? You have us with Dwight, and the Spurs with Duncan, if you consider him a center. Maybe Detroit, if you see them as having been built around Ben Wallace, but that is pretty arguable. He can correct me if I am wrong, but that seems to be the point Optimist was trying to get to, which I think is fair. not Detroit. Indiana around Jermaine O'Neal who was ostensibly a center even during those early years. Houston with Yao we're considering Toronto Bosh a 4 right? because he "played center" like vucevic "plays power forward" right? bogut in Milwaukee al horford? I don't know. he might be in the same bosh situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Odin 137 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 not Detroit. Indiana around Jermaine O'Neal who was ostensibly a center even during those early years. Houston with Yao we're considering Toronto Bosh a 4 right? because he "played center" like vucevic "plays power forward" right? bogut in Milwaukee al horford? I don't know. he might be in the same bosh situation. I forgot about Yao. Jermaine O'Neal works too Not sure Bogut in Milwaukee was successful, they only had one winning season with him. I always thought of Toronto Bosh as a 4, in Miami he started to evolve into more of a 5. Horford kind of works. Is Memphis built around Gasol? Anyway, I think we can all agree that the league has struggled to build around a center since the 90's- but that it doesn't mean that teams will continue to struggle to build around centers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheNameIsOrlando 310 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 The league has struggled with traditional centers because those guys no longer exist. These kids who are centers are no longer learning post moves. They are learning to handle the ball and extend their range. I'm sure there have been plenty of kids naturally gifted enough to play traditional but can't because that's not how they grew up playing the game. I've always thought Dirk was the begining of the end for the traditional big man and while he may of played a vital role now is the time where it is supremely evident. We are in the infancy of that transition. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 The league has struggled with traditional centers because those guys no longer exist. These kids who are centers are no longer learning post moves. They are learning to handle the ball and extend their range. I'm sure there have been plenty of kids naturally gifted enough to play traditional but can't because that's not how they grew up playing the game. I've always thought Dirk was the begining of the end for the traditional big man and while he may of played a vital role now is the time where it is supremely evident. We are in the infancy of that transition. No, it's not a skill set thing. The collective basketball community figured out that, absent a abnormally good player, there's really no difference statistically between running an isolation play and posting the ball up. Both are inferior to ball movement in terms of getting high percentage shots. There's a reason 10 of the top 12 eFG% seasons have occurred in the past 11 years (and the one season absent is the lockout year) and this year is the highest average eFG% in nba history. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheNameIsOrlando 310 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 No, it's not a skill set thing. The collective basketball community figured out that, absent a abnormally good player, there's really no difference statistically between running an isolation play and posting the ball up. Both are inferior to ball movement in terms of getting high percentage shots. There's a reason 10 of the top 12 eFG% seasons have occurred in the past 11 years (and the one season absent is the lockout year) and this year is the highest average eFG% in nba history. I can agree with that but they figured that out because of big men who moved in the direction of Dirk. I don't think a light bulb just clicked and everyone said hold on wait a minute. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 I can agree with that but they figured that out because of big men who moved in the direction of Dirk. I don't think a light bulb just clicked and everyone said hold on wait a minute. nah, it wasn't a lightbulb. it was a slow progression. teams took 13ish threes from 98-01, then 14ish threes from 01-04, then 16ish threes from 04-07, then 18ish threes from 07-12, then growth became exponential. 20 in 12-13, 21.5 in 13-14, 22.4 in 14-15, 24.1 in 15-16, 27 in 16-17. That's one of the reasons I'm so high on Monk. his catch and shoot rating is very very high. and I don't think you can use conventional means to evaluate shooters anymore. you have to look at them solely through the lens of the last 3 seasons. in 08/09 we took 26.2 threes per game and it felt revolutionary. This season we're taking 26.1 threes per game and we're 15th in attempts. Crazy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimist Prime 197 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 My question had to do with both the lack of traditional centers of quality and the change in pace and style of the game. If centers are spending more time on the perimeter, they aren't creating as many second opportunities with oreb. If the center is posting up (traditional), they are scoring less points and taking more time to do it than teams shooting threes. But then maybe slowing the game down throws shooting teams off their rhythm. Getting those second opportunities creates more possessions, and therefore more points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimist Prime 197 Report post Posted April 12, 2017 not Detroit. Indiana around Jermaine O'Neal who was ostensibly a center even during those early years. Houston with Yao we're considering Toronto Bosh a 4 right? because he "played center" like vucevic "plays power forward" right? bogut in Milwaukee al horford? I don't know. he might be in the same bosh situation. This is what I'm looking for. And makes me think, are teams built around centers more likely to have shorter windows? Are these teams more volatile, and likely to change dynamics than teams built around wings? Are they more sensitive to wrong pieces, or do fluke injuries just happen to ruin the data? Does high usage affect bigs more than guards to the point that building around them is a risk? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
