Game Thread: Orlando Magic @ Los Angeles Lakers

[Justin Jaudon 221]

I'd roll with a 100% fully enaged Dipo and Payton all day long

 

Ah, the myth of a 100% fully engaged Elfrid Payton...

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I'd honestly move Payton for a late 1st rounder at this point.

 

Brevin Knight 2.0

 

 

 

Because Payton has been terrible for more or less the entire season while Aaron has been good.

 

Right.

 

Plus we're not giving Gordon the benefit of the doubt for no reason. He has elite tools and is younger than half of the projected lotto picks.

 

With Payton it's "ok, he's a good passer and a good defender so we can wait to see if his offense improves" into "well he plays in a system now that mitigates the value of his passing and actually doesn't play great defense aside from the 45 seconds or so immediately after he gets pissed off" so what exactly do you have with him?

[fan for too long 2 531]

Ah, the myth of a 100% fully engaged Elfrid Payton...

Fully, as in skiles fully out of ep's head. This is the

Question?

[Mauro Pedrosa 1,032]

Right.

 

Plus we're not giving Gordon the benefit of the doubt for no reason. He has elite tools and is younger than half of the projected lotto picks.

 

With Payton it's "ok, he's a good passer and a good defender so we can wait to see if his offense improves" into "well he plays in a system now that mitigates the value of his passing and actually doesn't play great defense aside from the 45 seconds or so immediately after he gets pissed off" so what exactly do you have with him?

And for example Ricky Rubio, another guy with shooting deficiencies, has struggled his entire NBA career and he had way more hype behind him.

[Murphy13 185]

 

 

 

Because Payton has been terrible for more or less the entire season while Aaron has been good.

 

That's a terribly subjective position. I agree he hasn't played as well as I/we hoped, but he hasn't had any fewer good games than Gordon. I'm not saying Gordon doesn't have a higher individual ceiling, he does, but as far as output goes Gordon has been no less enigmatic and hasn't shown an obvious improvement in any particular category-whereas Payton has, for example. I understand Gordon had a small sample size last year and stuff, I'm just saying that not only is Payton not as deficient as most here seem to believe, but that what he brings to the table (potentially) will lead to more wins than what Gordon (potentially) brings to the table. Payton just has his fingers on so many parts of the game in comparison to Gordon. This is already partially evident in the nature of their respective good games, a lot of Gordon's good games have come in defeat, whereas a higher % of Payton's have come in victories...though the statistical significance of this is low considering the low number of total wins we are using as a comparison.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

That's a terribly subjective position. I agree he hasn't played as well as I/we hoped, but he hasn't had any fewer good games than Gordon. I'm not saying Gordon doesn't have a higher individual ceiling, he does, but as far as output goes Gordon has been no less enigmatic and hasn't shown an obvious improvement in any particular category-whereas Payton has, for example. I understand Gordon had a small sample size last year and stuff, I'm just saying that not only is Payton not as deficient as most here seem to believe, but that what he brings to the table (potentially) will lead to more wins than what Gordon (potentially) brings to the table. Payton just has his fingers on so many parts of the game in comparison to Gordon. This is already partially evident in the nature of their respective good games, a lot of Gordon's good games have come in defeat, whereas a higher % of Payton's have come in victories...though the statistical significance of this is low considering the low number of total wins we are using as a comparison.

 

Actually, we can measure this and Gordon isn't enigmatic at all. You expect 20 year old basketball players to have wildly inconsistent games. You just want him to show more macro level growth (which he's doing). It's not surprising that Gordon has fewer good games than payton given the fact that payton has played more (payton has 31 30+ minute games and Gordon has 14. 11 of which have happened in the last 49 days)

 

but back to statistics,

 

 

Per basketball reference:

 

Gordon has a PER of 17.6

Payton has a PER of 13.6

the league average is standardized to 15 so Payton is below average.

 

Gordon has win shares at 4.5

Payton has win shares at 1.8

 

Gordon has a BPM of 2.0

Payton has a BPM of -1.6

This shows that payton is a below league average player

 

We're 1.4 points per 100 possessions better with Gordon on the court

We're 3.0 points per 100 possessions worse with payton on the court.

 

Gordon has played 50% of the career minutes, 32 fewer games, and is 20 months younger than Payton

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Fully, as in skiles fully out of ep's head. This is the

Question?

 

You want the coach to have no input on what the PG is doing? Really?

[Franchero MVP 391]

We need Russell. Trade for Russell.

 

LA says no

[~O~ 565]

post all star, lineups that include both Russell and Clarkson have a offensive rating of 106.6 and a defensive rating of 127.5.

 

 

I wouldn't be so quick to jump on the Russell Clarkson bandwagon as they might not be able to play together.

 

That defensive...rating...................

[Murphy13 185]

Actually, we can measure this and Gordon isn't enigmatic at all. You expect 20 year old basketball players to have wildly inconsistent games. You just want him to show more macro level growth (which he's doing). It's not surprising that Gordon has fewer good games than payton given the fact that payton has played more (payton has 31 30+ minute games and Gordon has 14. 11 of which have happened in the last 49 days)

 

but back to statistics,

 

 

Per basketball reference:

 

Gordon has a PER of 17.6

Payton has a PER of 13.6

the league average is standardized to 15 so Payton is below average.

 

Gordon has win shares at 4.5

Payton has win shares at 1.8

 

Gordon has a BPM of 2.0

Payton has a BPM of -1.6

This shows that payton is a below league average player

 

We're 1.4 points per 100 possessions better with Gordon on the court

We're 3.0 points per 100 possessions worse with payton on the court.

 

Gordon has played 50% of the career minutes, 32 fewer games, and is 20 months younger than Payton

 

I like it, you get thumbs up from me. I still think I good PG will get us further than a good SF/Gordon/PF whatever he is will be, but yes, Gordon is putting up better numbers currently than Payton given a smaller sample size.

[fan for too long 2 531]

You want the coach to have no input on what the PG is doing? Really?

I want the coach to actually stand behind his players. Not yank them as soon as they are not doing what he wants and then just let them stew on the bench and never get back in again. This is not teaching, which is what he should be doing. He has a very young core of players and patience with these young guys has got to be his top priority. His rotations are all over the place lately. Because he does not trust them. He looks desperate to find a winning formula. But by being so inconsistent with his players minutes, all it does is build inconsistency and resentment.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

I want the coach to actually stand behind his players. Not yank them as soon as they are not doing what he wants and then just let them stew on the bench and never get back in again. This is not teaching, which is what he should be doing. He has a very young core of players and patience with these young guys has got to be his top priority. His rotations are all over the place lately. Because he does not trust them. He looks desperate to find a winning formula. But by being so inconsistent with his players minutes, all it does is build inconsistency and resentment.

 

That is certainly one way of looking at it. Jaque Vaughn is a smart guy, and he seemed to view it that way, too. But tell me something: how come the guys who go all out every night are getting absurdly consistent minutes now? Dipo, Evan, Smith, those guys make mistakes. Dipo and Evan are young, and they make mistakes. He pulls them, they listen, he puts them back in, they go back to work. Sometimes they've figured it out, sometimes not. But they always go back to work when they get back on the floor. The guys whose minutes are up and down are either rookies like Mario or guys like Vuc and Elf who have effort issues. Elf gets pulled and he pouts; even when he gets back out there, he just pouts. That's a theme this season. He doesn't want to be held accountable, doesn't want to be coached. He wants to do things his way, and he wants the coach "behind him" as in where he doesn't have to listen. He plays on an island; even when he gets an assist, it's usually not from running the offense, but from doing his own thing. Now maybe it's because a lot is being put on him as a second-year player. Maybe he'll figure it out. But he never will understand how to play the game right if Skiles just lets him go out there and do his thing.

 

Skiles showed remarkable patience with Dipo. He benched him, but he let him know, this is a team thing, and it isn't necessarily permanent. Dipo responded like a professional, worked his ass off, and fixed what was a disastrous start to the season. Even Vuc usually responds well to extended time on the bench - it just sucks that Skiles has to continue to do that to get him motivated on D.

 

Skiles' rotations are all over the place. And he does seem desperate to find players who want to play every night. Would you prefer he just let guys roll out there half-assed and get annihilated while he just sits on the sidelines like Vaughn used to do? Should he just smile after blowouts and say, "Well, it's a process, these guys are learning to be NBA players"? Teaching isn't letting the students do whatever they want. It's showing how to do what you're asking them to do - which happens in practice, which we don't get to see - and then making them accountable in games for doing that. As a teacher, if a student shows no interest in doing math, you keep at him, keep teaching him, keep telling him how important it is. You don't put him on the Mathletes team and let him fail. You don't just keep giving him tests you know he's going to fail. Because then two things happen: 1) he never learns the lesson that he needed to learn all along, that it is important not to fail; and 2) he starts believing either he cannot succeed at math or that the teacher is not teaching him correctly - because at that point, he's right. Letting guys make mistakes without holding them accountable for three years is why this team has an effort problem.