The Official 2015-2016 Regular Season Thread

[Mauro Pedrosa 1,033]

The idea of letting go of Dipo

I think it's just the game to game panic that usually happens.

[Magicman28 295]

The idea of letting go of Dipo and then handing over the kind of money it will take to keep Fournier on this team makes me want to vomit. With Dipo I know what I will get. The guy will run through a brick wall on command and do nothing different. Of course he struggles handling the ball. He's not a damn point guard and everyone knows this. But he is the kind of glue guy a team needs and is the perfect off ball SG when you have a SF like Mario bombing away from downtown.

 

Sure Evan looked great tonight. Evan also looked like an all-star earlier this year. And between then and now he has been about as inconsistent a player as we have on the roster. And this is the guy that could be commanding a 10-13 million dollar contract in a year, possibly even more? No way in hell. Maybe 6-8 at the most. But he is not worth that, and he is not worth giving up a do everything player like Vic.

 

I also feel that if were really looking at breaking up this backcourt, which still feels a bit premature personally, then we are looking at the wrong guard. Payton just does not seem ready to run a team, especially not with any of the current players as his wing mates, be it Evan or Vic. It almost feels like we got Payton to late. I think he would have excelled with a very steady precision shooter like JJ or Korver next to him, someone who literally could not be ignored and forced the defense to be a bit more spread out. But this team isn't set up like that and I just don't feel Payton is there yet.

 

Also, yes the lineup may have finished off the game, but a no PG lineup isn't going to win in this league. It worked against Boston. Cool. Lets see if that crap flies against the Warriors or the Spurs (it won't).

 

 

Totally agree. If there's any splitting up of the guards, Fournier is the one I want to trade. I know Dipo will come to play every night and I still feel like when he hits his prime, he's gonna be good.

[Mauro Pedrosa 1,033]

[Catalina Maria 64]

Until a trade happens, I'd like to see a starting lineup of Payton, Hezonja, Harris, Gordon and Vooch, with Dipo as our super sixth man again. I believe that would balance out our play more.

 

Worth a shot. We had our best run in 3 years with Dipo as sixth man. Let's not forget that.

[TheNameIsOrlando 310]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--suns-fire-coach-jeff-hornacek-083602051.html

Suns to conduct interviews with staff today, expected to name an assistant as interim coach

 

Firesell time?

[Catalina Maria 64]

I think it's just the game to game panic that usually happens.

 

Personally, I don't like the idea of letting him go. It's the idea of putting so much responsibility in his hands or even perhaps him as a starter.

 

Dipo is the keeper over Fournier unless Fournier is willing to take 6-8 million a year, which he won't. Dipo's value is higher say 8-10 million. I don't think many people are arguing that. After seeing Mario play last night, the Magic's goal of making him a legitimate 2-way threat is a great goal to have. Mario has potential to be a star for our team.

 

Let's make it competitive against the Spurs tonight.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Personally, I don't like the idea of letting him go. It's the idea of putting so much responsibility in his hands or even perhaps him as a starter.

 

Dipo is the keeper over Fournier unless Fournier is willing to take 6-8 million a year, which he won't. Dipo's value is higher say 8-10 million. I don't think many people are arguing that. After seeing Mario play last night, the Magic's goal of making him a legitimate 2-way threat is a great goal to have. Mario has potential to be a star for our team.

 

Let's make it competitive against the Spurs tonight.

 

I'd be fine keeping Fournier on a 4/40 deal. slightly overpaying for a guy you have is probably preferable to chasing around potential replacements.

 

However, we think we have a great shot at signing Kent Bazemore, Courtney lee, tyler Johnson, allen crabbe, Terrence ross, or gary neal for 1/2 that I think you have to let Fournier go.

[Magicman28 295]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources--suns-fire-coach-jeff-hornacek-083602051.html

Suns to conduct interviews with staff today, expected to name an assistant as interim coach

 

Firesell time?

[/quote

 

Too bad Bledsoe went down. Would love to see him/Mario/Harris/Gordon/Vuc.

[Catalina Maria 64]

I'd be fine keeping Fournier on a 4/40 deal. slightly overpaying for a guy you have is probably preferable to chasing around potential replacements.

 

However, we think we have a great shot at signing Kent Bazemore, Courtney lee, tyler Johnson, allen crabbe, Terrence ross, or gary neal for 1/2 that I think you have to let Fournier go.

 

Agreed. Gary Neal would be great.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

I've been pretty clear on who I would choose between Payton and Oladipo, and my reasoning is fairly simple. You can teach skills like shooting, and experience will help eliminate mistakes. But you cannot teach consistency of effort and mental focus.

 

From the moment Dipo came to this team, he's been all out effort and focus. There's been a learning curve, especially with learning to run the point for long stretches (something he should no longer have to do for more than 2-3 minutes a game). There's been a slow development of his shot (which is not finished, but it seems certainly to be getting better; he's not terrible, now). But the tools are obviously there, and these days there's a 50-50 shot he's going for 18-5-5 with great D or he's going for 10-3-3 with very good D.

 

Payton, on the other hand, is the very picture of inconsistency in effort and mental focus. Dipo's inconsistencies are in skill development. Payton's are in mental makeup. I'm sorry, but that is not something that just changes with time. Maybe he breaks through some kind of mental wall, but that kind of thing is extremely rare. I like what Payton brings to this team... sometimes. That's the problem with Payton, that word: sometimes. Sometimes he brings it, actually decides to play defense (though he seems to always get torched by anyone with quick handles and a mid-range jumper, mostly because he actually has really poor habits even when he's going hard on D). Sometimes he decides to go hard at the basket and use his tremendous inside touch (though his foul shooting is nearly as bad as last year's, limiting that skill somewhat). Sometimes he isn't too scared to shoot more than 5 feet from the basket (much improved %, but seems even less inclined this year to actually do it, which might be why the % is up). Sometimes he gets others involved and shows some nice passes (though, for what it's worth, his assist average is not at all impressive, considering that's supposed to be his biggest skill). With Payton, it seems there's a 20% chance he'll play well in any given quarter, and a 50% chance he'll do nothing at all.

 

I think the ceiling on these guys is still similar. Oladipo is very much looking like he will be a 15-4-4 guy on inconsistent %s who might turn into a 18-5-5 guy if his shot starts going in more consistently. He'll always be a stellar defender. Payton is looking like he will be a 13-6-4 guy on uneven %s who might turn into a 15-7-4 guy if he can improve his effort and focus, and if his shooting improves away from the basket. It's hard to say if he will ever be as good a defender as Oladipo, but he could be at least good if his habits improve (which they honestly should).

 

The sad thing is, I can only think of a couple of teams that would likely take Payton for anything more than a late first rounder, and that's probably being generous. Look around the league. How many teams play with a pass-first PG who can't shoot? How many teams could even make much use out of that? Take the NOLA trade someone mentioned. I like Holiday, but why would NOLA want Payton? Could Payton play with Tyreke? Not likely, even if Tyreke really has fixed his shot from outside (which I doubt will be consistent). Payton's ceiling is Tyreke light on O with better D. The only places I could really see using him are Sacramento and Phoenix, both of whom already have good PG's not at the end of their careers. Sac could use him, sure, but mostly they'd be grooming him to take over whenever Rondo inevitably melts down or breaks down. He would thrive in Phoenix, but how valuable is he as Eric Bledsoe's backup? Somewhat valuable, sure, as Bledsoe has not been the picture of consistent health. But valuable enough to give up a legit asset? Probably not.

[Magicman28 295]

I've been pretty clear on who I would choose between Payton and Oladipo, and my reasoning is fairly simple. You can teach skills like shooting, and experience will help eliminate mistakes. But you cannot teach consistency of effort and mental focus.

 

From the moment Dipo came to this team, he's been all out effort and focus. There's been a learning curve, especially with learning to run the point for long stretches (something he should no longer have to do for more than 2-3 minutes a game). There's been a slow development of his shot (which is not finished, but it seems certainly to be getting better; he's not terrible, now). But the tools are obviously there, and these days there's a 50-50 shot he's going for 18-5-5 with great D or he's going for 10-3-3 with very good D.

 

Payton, on the other hand, is the very picture of inconsistency in effort and mental focus. Dipo's inconsistencies are in skill development. Payton's are in mental makeup. I'm sorry, but that is not something that just changes with time. Maybe he breaks through some kind of mental wall, but that kind of thing is extremely rare. I like what Payton brings to this team... sometimes. That's the problem with Payton, that word: sometimes. Sometimes he brings it, actually decides to play defense (though he seems to always get torched by anyone with quick handles and a mid-range jumper, mostly because he actually has really poor habits even when he's going hard on D). Sometimes he decides to go hard at the basket and use his tremendous inside touch (though his foul shooting is nearly as bad as last year's, limiting that skill somewhat). Sometimes he isn't too scared to shoot more than 5 feet from the basket (much improved %, but seems even less inclined this year to actually do it, which might be why the % is up). Sometimes he gets others involved and shows some nice passes (though, for what it's worth, his assist average is not at all impressive, considering that's supposed to be his biggest skill). With Payton, it seems there's a 20% chance he'll play well in any given quarter, and a 50% chance he'll do nothing at all.

 

I think the ceiling on these guys is still similar. Oladipo is very much looking like he will be a 15-4-4 guy on inconsistent %s who might turn into a 18-5-5 guy if his shot starts going in more consistently. He'll always be a stellar defender. Payton is looking like he will be a 13-6-4 guy on uneven %s who might turn into a 15-7-4 guy if he can improve his effort and focus, and if his shooting improves away from the basket. It's hard to say if he will ever be as good a defender as Oladipo, but he could be at least good if his habits improve (which they honestly should).

 

The sad thing is, I can only think of a couple of teams that would likely take Payton for anything more than a late first rounder, and that's probably being generous. Look around the league. How many teams play with a pass-first PG who can't shoot? How many teams could even make much use out of that? Take the NOLA trade someone mentioned. I like Holiday, but why would NOLA want Payton? Could Payton play with Tyreke? Not likely, even if Tyreke really has fixed his shot from outside (which I doubt will be consistent). Payton's ceiling is Tyreke light on O with better D. The only places I could really see using him are Sacramento and Phoenix, both of whom already have good PG's not at the end of their careers. Sac could use him, sure, but mostly they'd be grooming him to take over whenever Rondo inevitably melts down or breaks down. He would thrive in Phoenix, but how valuable is he as Eric Bledsoe's backup? Somewhat valuable, sure, as Bledsoe has not been the picture of consistent health. But valuable enough to give up a legit asset? Probably not.

 

Spot on imo and exactly my assessment.

 

It might be, if we decide to trade Payton, we have to find someone like Holiday, who's sitting on then bench needing a bigger role.

 

Another thing on Payton, sometimes he looks like he can get into the lane whenever he wants. Sometimes he looks like he can't. Like he's running in molasses.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Final January numbers:

 

Oladipo: 16.8ppg 4 apg 4 rpg on 46/48/88 shooting

 

Payton: 9.8ppg 4.8 apg 3 rpg on 44/50/55 shooting

 

Fournier: 12.2ppg 2.7 apg 2 rpg on 43/38/77 shooting

 

Harris: 12.0ppg 2.4 apg 6.4 rpg on 43/29/70 shooting

 

Hezonja: 5.6ppg 1.4 apg 1.8 rpg on 38/31/94 shooting

 

Gordon: 9.7 ppg 1.9 apg 7.4 rpg on 53/31/64 shooting

 

vucevic: 15.2 ppg 3 apg 9.1 rpg on 43/0/76 shooting.