MVP Race

[Sabian Jackson 0]

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If you didn't care whether people thought you were wrong or not, you'd have not posted. Don't act blase when your the very existenceof your post proves you aren't.

 

 

 

By this logic, you couldn't prove Great Xenu wrong if he were to suggest that Mike Miller was the MVP.

 

An opinion that doesn't stand up to scrutiny and evidence is wrong. I don't know why you seem bent on repeating the notion that this isn't true, but it just makes you look foolish.

 

 

 

No, you're wrong, and Xenu is starting to wonder how you can maintain such an outlook into what he can only assume is some kind of functional adulthood.

 

It absolutely possible to establish right and wrong in a discussion. Stop with the "It's just my opinion" nonsense. It's stupid. It might be your opinion that Derrick Rose is the best point guard in the league, to ever play, that his tears cure rare forms of cancer and that he's the second coming. That those things are your opinion is irrelevant, and it certainly doesn't make those opinions unassailable. An opinion that exists in direct dispute of existing evidence is wrong.

 

Do you realize what would happen to the justice systems of Teegeeack if your notion of "Opinions can't be proven wrong" was made a legal precedent? Do you understand how insane that logic is?

 

 

 

You hedged a ton just now, but you almost made a declarative statement about why you think, or one of several reasons you think or whatever hedging I have to do to get you to stop acting like I'm picking on you, about why Rose is MVP due to his leadership. Congrats! You're almost ready to have an adult discussion.

 

Now BACK UP YOUR OPINION. WHY is Rose the leader of the team rather than their new coach? WHY is HIS leadership more significant than his new coach, or the defense, or Deng's resurgence, or the addition of a 20/10 big man.

 

You want Xenu to treat you like with the respect he gives to others but avoids giving you? EARN IT.

 

You keep implying that Xenu is incapable of respecting a position he disagrees with. That's ludicrous, and is an assumption you only have because Xenu sees no reason to respect, well, anything you've ever written on this board. However, Xenu has had disagreements with members of this board that he respects, in so much as Xenu could ever respect Teegeeackian man-ape, over topics ranging from basketball to American politics to religion to science, and any number of ancillary topics. The difference between those he respects and those who are like you is that those posters back their opinions up with evidence, both qualitiative and quantitative. You state an opinon, and you believe that's enough.

 

And since you mention leadership, if we can't limit ourselves to quantitative analysis and leadership matters so much, why wouldn't we give the MVP to the leader of the Spurs, who have a better record?

 

 

 

The obvious answer to this question, pathetic man-animal, is that you do, since you insist on bringing it up once a week. Xenu's point is that if you want to continue to make that accusation as a feable attempt to undercut Xenu's arguments, you should at least back it up with evidence.

 

Either that or Xenu can simply start claiming without evidence that you raped a baby. After all, if you are under no obligation to back up your statements with evidence, Lord Xenu sees little reason that anyone else should be obligated to do so.

 

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Firstly, you seemed to be under the impression that what we decide or conclude or discuss on this board has any relevance to the outside world, or the outcome of events which will follow. Whether I back up my opinion or not is basically irrelevant. The difference between this discussion and the justice system, (another of your ridiculous comparisons) is that in the justice system people have to reach a conclusion and a decision. There is also the fact that in the justice system is actually important, whereas our basketball discussion is not, nor could you really make any reasonable argument to suggest it is. And yes, we are quite capable of having a discussion based on some evidence, whether it little or large, if we feel like it.

 

Yet more of your ridiculous examples arise in your bringing up Mike Miller. There is a big difference between arguing whether a bench player on a team with 3 superstars on it is the MVP, and the undeniable best player on a team with the second/third best record in the league. Stop making such ridiculous comparisons, because that makes you look foolish, and makes you guilty of supposedly what you are accusing me of. Just because you "could" argue Mike Miller is the MVP, doesn't mean anyone in the entire world would take you seriously. Even Mike Miller. This is essentially a pointless point by you. It does not prove anything nor does it back up your position at all.

 

When I refer to "my opinion", i'm referring to my opinion on things that are open to interpretation. If I think that Rose playing better this year and being a leader is more important than the arguments you outline, then I have reached that conclusion through my interpretation. For example, the Bulls were still winning without Boozer (your 20/10 guy) or Deng play well, even though he is not massively better than last year statistically. We have actually already covered these reasons in this discussion, and I have made these points. If you couldn't be bothered to go look for them, it is not my duty to have to list them again. In fact, for most of my points, I have given reasons in one way or another, throughout this whole discussion. Go find them, and you'll see some of my reasoning. If you don't, I'm under no obligation to do anything other than reiterate my main point briefly. On a side note though, an opinion equal to a large proportion of other peoples viewpoints, i.e. Rose being MVP doesn't make me look ridiculous, it makes me look like I agree with a lot of other people with the same opinion. Granted you may or may not agree, but I'm sure there are people who are far informed in the basketball world than you or I, with a similar opinion to me, as I'm sure there are with an opposing view to mine. Don't act like I'm being stupid for think he is the MVP when he is most definitely in the discussion.

 

You are correct in saying you could argue that a member of the Spurs is more valuable. Who are you going to choose? Who is more important? Manu, Duncan or Parker, and why are any of them more valuable than Rose is to his team? (Just FYI, this is how you engage in a discussion with someone.)

 

I also am not acting like you're picking on me or any other poster, I simply thing you have a poor way or dealing with discussions such as this. Again, I see no reason why I have to provide evidence to be scrutinized by judge and jury for this opinion.

 

Also, just because I post doesn't mean I give a hoot one way or another people if people agree or disagree with me. I do it because I enjoy reading other peoples views and I enjoy taking part. You can think otherwise if you want, but since I am me, and you are not, I know why, and you do not. I also do not care one bit whether you want to accuse me of rape. I will not demand evidence nor will I bat more than an eyelid at you if you did, particularly as I will never meet you, nor will it make any difference to my life whether you say that or not. Go ahead, see if I respond the way you have. Unlike you seemingly, my reputation on an Orlando message board is not even close to being important thing in my life.

[Optimist Prime 197]

Bulls were 9-7 when Boozer came in from his injury. The game where he came back, they lost to the Magic, who were 14-4 at the time, tied with Boston for first in the East. The "struggling" Heat were 11-8. Since this point, the Magic went through a viral sickness and subsequent roster overhaul and Boston battled injuries to Rondo and Garnett. This is the main reason Chicago is the 1 seed right now.

 

What I'm trying to say is, I don't see what is so amazing about pulling out a 9-7 record without that "20/10 guy". You might have an argument for when Noah was out, but by this time, Boozer was incorporated into the system and Deng was hitting his stride.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

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Firstly, you seemed to be under the impression that what we decide or conclude or discuss on this board has any relevance to the outside world, or the outcome of events which will follow. Whether I back up my opinion or not is basically irrelevant. The difference between this discussion and the justice system, (another of your ridiculous comparisons) is that in the justice system people have to reach a conclusion and a decision. There is also the fact that in the justice system is actually important, whereas our basketball discussion is not, nor could you really make any reasonable argument to suggest it is. And yes, we are quite capable of having a discussion based on some evidence, whether it little or large, if we feel like it.

 

You do realize that Xenu was merely taking your logic, the logic that an opinion, any opinion, couldn't be wrong because it was an opinion, to it's logical extreme, right?

 

You didn't realize that, did you?

 

Yet more of your ridiculous examples arise in your bringing up Mike Miller. There is a big difference between arguing whether a bench player on a team with 3 superstars on it is the MVP, and the undeniable best player on a team with the second/third best record in the league. Stop making such ridiculous comparisons, because that makes you look foolish, and makes you guilty of supposedly what you are accusing me of. Just because you "could" argue Mike Miller is the MVP, doesn't mean anyone in the entire world would take you seriously. Even Mike Miller. This is essentially a pointless point by you. It does not prove anything nor does it back up your position at all.

 

If one opinion can't be wrong because it's an opinion, why could a different opinion be wrong? The problem is that the logic you're using to desperately defend one point doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all. If you wanted to defend your "Opinions can't be wrong" point, you should be defending the idea that someone COULD argue that Miller was the MVP and not be wrong.

 

When I refer to "my opinion", i'm referring to my opinion on things that are open to interpretation.

 

Who decides what's open to interpretation?

 

If I think that Rose playing better this year and being a leader is more important than the arguments you outline, then I have reached that conclusion through my interpretation. For example, the Bulls were still winning without Boozer (your 20/10 guy) or Deng play well, even though he is not massively better than last year statistically. We have actually already covered these reasons in this discussion, and I have made these points. If you couldn't be bothered to go look for them, it is not my duty to have to list them again. In fact, for most of my points, I have given reasons in one way or another, throughout this whole discussion. Go find them, and you'll see some of my reasoning. If you don't, I'm under no obligation to do anything other than reiterate my main point briefly. On a side note though, an opinion equal to a large proportion of other peoples viewpoints, i.e. Rose being MVP doesn't make me look ridiculous, it makes me look like I agree with a lot of other people with the same opinion. Granted you may or may not agree, but I'm sure there are people who are far informed in the basketball world than you or I, with a similar opinion to me, as I'm sure there are with an opposing view to mine. Don't act like I'm being stupid for think he is the MVP when he is most definitely in the discussion.

 

What you've done is repeat the points without justification. "I just think so" isn't a support for your argument, it's childish prattle.

 

Also, your reasoning why Rose was more important than the listed reasons Xenu mentioned earlier that you claim to have refuted was limited to this:

 

Dengs numbers are also the same, if not slightly worse than last season. So your idea of a "resurgence of Luol Deng" is basically wrong. Sorry.

 

You seem to be losing your touch of belittling people on their opinions DOM. That is a shame.

 

with the rest of the post being about how centers didn't win many MVPs in the 90s, as though that is remotely relevant to what is or was being discussed. It isn't and wasn't. Which means that not only did you ignore the majority of the points your supreme leader made because they were inconvenient for you, but the one you did address, you addressed by contradicting your "stats aren't everything!" platform that is the entire basis of your argument.

 

You are correct in saying you could argue that a member of the Spurs is more valuable. Who are you going to choose? Who is more important? Manu, Duncan or Parker, and why are any of them more valuable than Rose is to his team? (Just FYI, this is how you engage in a discussion with someone.)

 

If the way you believe to engage in a discussion is to take obvious hypotheticals literally, than Lord Xenu has no reason to believe that you're not simply trolling the forum. No one is that stupid.

 

I also am not acting like you're picking on me or any other poster, I simply thing you have a poor way or dealing with discussions such as this. Again, I see no reason why I have to provide evidence to be scrutinized by judge and jury for this opinion.

 

Then stop bringing it up.

 

Also, just because I post doesn't mean I give a hoot one way or another people if people agree or disagree with me. I do it because I enjoy reading other peoples views and I enjoy taking part.

 

It's sad that you don't seem to realize that these sentences contradict each other. A Teegeeackian who believes red is the best color and doesn't care what others think won't bother asking what other Teegeeackians believe to be the best color, because such a question would serve no purpose.

 

You can think otherwise if you want, but since I am me, and you are not, I know why, and you do not. I also do not care one bit whether you want to accuse me of rape. I will not demand evidence nor will I bat more than an eyelid at you if you did, particularly as I will never meet you, nor will it make any difference to my life whether you say that or not. Go ahead, see if I respond the way you have.

 

You really struggle with metaphors and analogies, don't you?

 

Unlike you seemingly, my reputation on an Orlando message board is not even close to being important thing in my life.

 

Yes, Teegeeackian. You're e-penis is huge, and you're clearly better than Xenu. You sure showed Xenu.

 

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[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

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Also: it's hard to take a Teegeeackian seriously as he tries to position himself as an example of rational, adult discussion when in the very thread being discused he's written:

 

Or you need to make points relevant rather than "I saw this one game and it was 24-2 at one point".

 

It's only one game. It means nothing. It's a 22 point deficit at one point in a game. Teams have been further down than that and come back, other teams have been beaten by more that. Yeah they got destroyed, but using that logic, Cleveland also beat the Lakers in one game, you know, that team that won the championship the last two years...

 

What does that tell you? Answer: Nothing.

 

MVP is not decided by one game, so don't make a point about Lebron based on one game if you want your point to be taken seriously. If you do, then you should accept that it probably won't be.

 

followed 3 days later by:

 

I'll back you on this. Proof? Rose held D Will, arguably the best point guard in the league, to just 5 points, (1-12 shooting) in a recent matchup. Bear in mind that the Nets don't have an abundance of offensive talent.

 

and responded to the criticism of THAT point with the posts acknowledging that Williams was injured and playing terribly against everyone, by writing:

 

And, if you refuse to give Rose any respect in that game against DWill, then the conclusion we have is that D Will is an incredibly stupid player as he continually chucked up 12 shots in a game where he is badly injured and clearly wasn't making the wide open shots that Rose was letting him have.

 

You decide

 

and

 

So, D Will is very stupid. Got it.

 

Just as a side note, time for the joke to stop? Or is it still as hilarious as the first post in this format?

 

 

Then there were your lovely, childish response this morning of:

 

I'm glad you know why I say these things. Makes me feel a lot better. It also means the whole forum is irrelevant because you know exactly what everyone means and says.

 

HEY EVERYONE, ITS OK, DOMS GOT THIS. WE DON'T NEED TO SAY WHAT WE THINK ANYMORE BECAUSE HE "KNOWS".

 

Teegeeackians like you may believe mighty Xenu is an *******, and Xenu admits openly that he has little patience for willful ignorance.

 

However, at least Xenu has the good sense to not then try to claim himself to be a beacon of peaceful understanding for willful ignorance. Better to be an ******* than an ******* AND a hypocrite.

 

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[Sabian Jackson 0]

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You do realize that Xenu was merely taking your logic, the logic that an opinion, any opinion, couldn't be wrong because it was an opinion, to it's logical extreme, right?

 

You didn't realize that, did you?

 

 

 

If one opinion can't be wrong because it's an opinion, why could a different opinion be wrong? The problem is that the logic you're using to desperately defend one point doesn't stand up to any scrutiny at all. If you wanted to defend your "Opinions can't be wrong" point, you should be defending the idea that someone COULD argue that Miller was the MVP and not be wrong.

 

 

 

Who decides what's open to interpretation?

 

 

 

What you've done is repeat the points without justification. "I just think so" isn't a support for your argument, it's childish prattle.

 

Also, your reasoning why Rose was more important than the listed reasons Xenu mentioned earlier that you claim to have refuted was limited to this:

 

 

 

with the rest of the post being about how centers didn't win many MVPs in the 90s, as though that is remotely relevant to what is or was being discussed. It isn't and wasn't. Which means that not only did you ignore the majority of the points your supreme leader made because they were inconvenient for you, but the one you did address, you addressed by contradicting your "stats aren't everything!" platform that is the entire basis of your argument.

 

 

 

If the way you believe to engage in a discussion is to take obvious hypotheticals literally, than Lord Xenu has no reason to believe that you're not simply trolling the forum. No one is that stupid.

 

 

 

Then stop bringing it up.

 

 

 

It's sad that you don't seem to realize that these sentences contradict each other. A Teegeeackian who believes red is the best color and doesn't care what others think won't bother asking what other Teegeeackians believe to be the best color, because such a question would serve no purpose.

 

 

 

You really struggle with metaphors and analogies, don't you?

 

 

 

Yes, Teegeeackian. You're e-penis is huge, and you're clearly better than Xenu. You sure showed Xenu.

 

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So firstly, you prove my point that you take things to absolutes. Good work.

 

I also didn't actually say you were wrong if you argue that Miller could be MVP, I just questioned why anyone would, since that is a completely different scenario to the Rose one.

 

Things that are "open to interpretation", are things such as Wade is not a good defender etc. Or perhaps you should provide reasons why he is not rather than simply stating it? Oh wait, no, you haven't done that either, you just state he isn't because you said so. Pot calling the kettle black perhaps?

 

So what part of the "he has the same numbers as last year" do you not understand? That is some sort of justification of why Deng isn't a factor. Perhaps you should justify why he is? Or why Boozer is a factor? Yet you haven't. Another situation where you have made points equally the way I have.

 

I was also using your viewpoint of stats proving something and using it against you. Or is it not OK for people to take your logic and use it against you?

 

And those sentences do not contradict each other. Just because someone enjoys a discussion or contrary views, doesn't mean they care whether the views are contrary or not. I have many friends who have similar views and many who have different views. This doesn't mean I enjoy either opinion any more than the other. Perhaps I just enjoy the discussion itself, rather than the notion of a "right view" or a "wrong view".

 

And funny how you conclude with pretty much the epitome of yourself. "Yes, Teegeeackian. You're e-penis is huge, and you're clearly better than Xenu. You sure showed Xen". This is also strange considering your tag line a little while ago was quoting someone saying about how you "destroy members of the forum." The very fact that you liked to draw attention to this yourself means that you clearly love the attention. Or that you keep this Xenu front up because you love calling people pitiful or pathetic and are able to get away with it because it's an "act". It's just sad really.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Things that are "open to interpretation", are things such as Wade is not a good defender etc. Or perhaps you should provide reasons why he is not rather than simply stating it? Oh wait, no, you haven't done that either, you just state he isn't because you said so. Pot calling the kettle black perhaps?

 

You mean besides stating that he gambles away from his man far too often for steals and blocks, and on the 80% of the time when he fails to alter a pass or shot, he leaves his man open? Because I already said that, you ignorant pissant. Xenu is decidedly not responsible for your inablity to read the very posts you're choosing to reference.

 

So what part of the "he has the same numbers as last year" do you not understand? That is some sort of justification of why Deng isn't a factor. Perhaps you should justify why he is?

 

Because he's drastically improved his defense to the point that he's a top 5 wing defender in the league, and he's maintained his offensive numbers while going from being a legit #2 option to being a #3 and some nights #4 option.

 

Or why Boozer is a factor? Yet you haven't. Another situation where you have made points equally the way I have.

 

Xenu is now legitimately curious: What is it you think "20/10 big man" means? Do you think Xenu was asserting that "20/10" was Boozer's jersey number?

 

On that subject, what reason do you think Xenu had for bringing up that Chicago's biggest weaknesses last year was interior scoring and defense when bringing up said 20/10 big man and a new defensive scheme led by a defensive minded coach?

 

That you failed to understand a point doesn't mean that one wasn't made crystal clearly.

 

I was also using your viewpoint of stats proving something and using it against you. Or is it not OK for people to take your logic and use it against you?

 

People use statistics against Xenu all the time. They usually just know well enough to actually put the stats into context before attempting to do so.

 

A stupid person would argue that Bill Russell sucked on offense because his FG% was jaw-droppingly low. A smart person recognizes that his FG% was quite high for his era, which rarely saw teams go even 10 seconds into the shot clock. Would you, man-animal, like to guess which type of person you are in that analogy, at least in terms of your use of statistics in this thread?

 

The very fact that you liked to draw attention to this yourself means that you clearly love the attention. Or that you keep this Xenu front up because you love calling people pitiful or pathetic and are able to get away with it because it's an "act". It's just sad really.

 

Ahem:

"I'm glad you know why I say these things. Makes me feel a lot better. It also means the whole forum is irrelevant because you know exactly what everyone means and says.

 

HEY EVERYONE, ITS OK, SABIAN JACKSON'S GOT THIS. WE DON'T NEED TO SAY WHAT WE THINK ANYMORE BECAUSE HE 'KNOWS'. "

 

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[Captain Hi-Top 791]

It's threads like this that make me lose all hope for humanity, and prepare myself to welcome our new alien overlords.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

It's threads like this that make me lose all hope for humanity, and prepare myself to welcome our new alien overlords.

 

 

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WHAT?!?

 

What NEW overlord would dare challenge Mighty Xenu for galactic supremacy?

 

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[Captain Hi-Top 791]

New is a relative term, open to interpretation, not a definitive and quantifiable term. it is my opinion that the all might Xenu is our "new" overlord, and therefore, I can not be wrong, because this is a discussion and I am stating my opinion.

 

That's how that works, right?

[BMP 424]

Anyone have any stats or quantitative data that talks about how a player plays defense? I'd be curious to see Rose in comparison to other stars.

 

http://www.magicbask...is-not-the-mvp/

 

 

Read that piece by Eddy. He does a good job of using stats to back up his opinion, tries to use statistical plus and minus stat (far different than +/-) for offense and defense, and etc

 

 

here's a part of it:

 

That question is brought up many times, with the underlying assumption that Chicago would be nowhere to be found and subsequently located in a dark abyss without the shining light of Rose to guide them on the path to a title. Thing is, the Bulls would still be a playoff-caliber team if Rose wasn’t on the roster, something that Neil Paine of Basketball-Reference is able to quantify:

 

In plain English, Chicago’s lineups can be expected to have an efficiency differential of +5.00 against an average team with Rose in the game, while they can be expected to have a differential of +2.36 against an average team when Rose isn’t in the game.

 

Again, this shows that while Chicago is certainly lessened when Rose is not on the floor, the hypothesis that they would completely fall apart without him is baseless. +2.36 is still a playoff-caliber team, essentially the same as the Hornets or Thunder. And this is after adjusting for the strength of opposing lineups when the backups are in the game, so it’s accounting for any backup-vs-backup effects.

 

 

 

 

Also,

 

http://www.basketbal...om/blog/?p=8946

 

Tom Haberstroh had a great piece at ESPN last week in which he broke down the ongoing Derrick Rose-vs-LeBron James MVP debate. To me, the key passage was this:

 

"Oddly enough, what's not helping Rose's MVP case is his plus-minus numbers. And implicitly, this is where most Rose supporters state their case. When his advocates ask, 'Where would the Bulls be without Rose?' the question is meant to be a rhetorical one. The obvious implication is that a Rose-less Bulls squad would instantly become a basement dweller. But rather than blindly accept it, we can actually see how the Bulls have managed without him on the court. And how have they fared with Rose benched? By beating opponents by 51 points on the season, or an average of 4.9 points every 100 possessions. Why? Whether Rose is in the game or not, [Tom] Thibodeau’s game-changing defense remains."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

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To piggyback onto BMP's post, Neil Paine at basketball-reference had a superb piece comparing Rose's MVP candidacy to Iverson's 2001 campaign last week.

 

It can be found here: Link.

 

It includes analysis both of their stats individually, their teams' stats, and their respective teams' identities.

 

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[Bauncey Chillups 288]

According to the Best Sportswriter In The Business™ , Dwight only occasionally gives a sh1t and pads his stats unlike Rose!

 

Regardless, it's a fun debate and I've enjoyed arguing about it with my friends, even if it's bizarre that Rose -- who truly gives a s--- about winning, wants to get better and doesn't care about his own numbers, unlike Dwight Howard (who occasionally gives a s---, continues to block the ball out of bounds because it's cool, can't be trusted in the last two minutes of a game and does care about his numbers) and LeBron James (who thought this was a good idea) -- became the most polarizing candidate.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/110401&sportCat=nba

 

DERP