HoopsWorld ranks NBA PG's-Jameer not top 12- Disrespect?

[Knappy 0]

quote:

Originally posted by ball junkie:

Although here is a link from ESPN that shows Jameer's PER ranking before he got hurt last year...as you will see he is/was top 5...

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba...&pos=pg&seasonType=2

 

In this link from HoopsWorld he is not rated in the top 12...he is listed in the caregory other notables that missed the cut.

 

Click the link to see the 12 PG's listed ahead of Jameer...

 

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=13673

 

Is this disrespectful for a guy that was an all-star last year?...Is this ranking deserved or undeserved?

 

Some guys don't really watch all the players, myself included. There are some good guards listed there, but putting Rondo in front of Jameer - I don't think so, and Calderon in front of Jameer I don't think so. And how many of those other guys would you trade Jameer straight up for? Kidd and Nash are getting up there - maybe Nash. Chris Paul is good - I don't think it is that big a deal.

 

I don't think Jameer has hit his potential yet, he was starting last season, but I think he was just starting to get there and a couple of seasons ago maybe when Brian Hill was instructed to leave them alone when they were trying to evaluate talent - that is when Jameer was probably at the top of his game and was showing how great he could be for about 30 games - around 23 pts a game shooting 53% - he was on fire.

 

I hope Stan keeps on Jameer and gets him to play aggressive and gets him to score. I will be disappointed if Jameer defers to VC - yes VC needs chances, but Jameer is best when he is aggressive and is trying to be a scorer - the whole team does better, his assists go up as teams have a nightmare when Jameer just starts blowing past people.

 

I sure hope Stan can get into Jameer's head and let him know that he wants Jameer to be the guy - to take over. If Jameer has that mentality it won't take away from VC, Rashard or Howard. It will make them all better and the Magic very, very tough.

 

There are not a whole lot of point guards I would trade Jameer for.

 

And, Kberto you have a typo on your signature - you say Jameer sucks, you meant to say Carlos sucks. Has any team even offered Carlos a contract yet? I haven't been paying attention lately in the off season. Anyone even offer Carlos the minimum? So many people think he is a superstar - surely someone has to at least have offered him the minimum, right? Is he going overseas again?

[Knappy 0]

quote:

Originally posted by bigsteve03:

quote:

Originally posted by mongoose:

I think if anybody thinks Rajon Rondo is a better basketball player than Jameer Nelson, then you shouldn't be writing about basketball

I would take Rondo over Nelson, to me without Dwight Nelson is not that good. With Rondo he does not need anybody else, he carried the Celts durring some games.

 

Big Steve, your status as Rookie has now been confirmed!

[Knappy 0]

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

quote:

Originally posted by ThuglifeJ:

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Originally posted by Kramer:

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

I think Meer should be on the list but the guy has had 1/2 a good season. So I can see why he is not, he is undersized and is still learning how to run an offense. Add in what a huge defensive liability he is and it makes sense. Now if he can come in this year and play a whole year like he did last year and lead his team through the playoffs he will get the respect. As far as Rondo, I think he might be the best PG in the east, maybe Harris. The guy is an elite defender at his position ,runs an offense well, elite rebounder at his position and has gotten better every year with his shooting. So saying oh Rondo sucks is nothing but being a homer and not being objective. I would take Rondo on my team in a heartbeat, and sorry to say but if Boston offered me Rondo for Meer straight up I would do it.

 

I personally think that Tony Parker is the best PG in the league. Paul has crazy stats but has won nothing and has not shown up in big games. Parker last year carried the Spurs by himself and is the best PG at getting to the rim in the league.

 

Jameer is a better on ball defender than Rondo. Rajon Rondo is a defensive liability because he just doesn't want to try to keep his man in front, he wants to try to make a spectactular defensive play and seven times out of eight, he is leaving a lane wide open. Anybody who is best known for "playing behind his man" SUCKS AT DEFENSE. And Harris isn't a better player than Jameer. Jameer can do more things offensively but he isn't asked to. Switch roles and the Magic would have an underachieving point guard while the Nets would get a 20+ point per game player in Jameer.

 

That said, you are right with Parker. Although I don't think he is the best in the league, I think Chauncey Billups and him are neck and neck. All Paul has done is get popular because of gaudy statlines with Billups and Parker, you know, win games and championships.

 

hahaha WHAT?!

 

That is a reason why Rondo is considered to be so good. He's one of the best defenders in the game, on ball at least.

Yeah try telling that to these guys, if they don't play for the Magic they suck. Meer is one of the worst defensive Pg's in the league and Rondo is known for his defense and rebounding and penetration.

 

Why are you guys talking about Rondo? Rondo sucks!

[Knappy 0]

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

I never said Rondo was a great jump shooter. I said he improved a lot in one year which he did. In 2007 he shot 32.5 eFG%, as you already pointed out in 2008 he shot 37.5%. That is a big jump for a 22 year old kid. His FG% went up from 42% to 50%. So exactly like I said he improved a lot and would not be surprised to see him shoot nearly 40% this year which would be really good.

 

Hughes was known as a very good defender, so slightly better is a compliment. He is the best defensive PG in the league, you could argue a couple other but you have to put Rondo up their. Meer is average on his best day but his size makes him a liability ALWAYS. Put in Rondo's age and we have not seen a PG defensively like him in a while. The guy is probably 3 years away from his prime.

 

Rondo's FG% improved because he started driving more between '07 and '08. That and his obvious ginormous improvements in becoming the zen master of point guards. Nothing else happened in the summer of '07, right? Oh wait, I remember now.

 

KG and Ray Allen happened. If you honestly think the fact that Rondo was suddenly an afterthought on defense wasn't THE reason his FG% improved, then you might be the dumbest person on the planet.

 

And why the hell would I care what you think will happen with Rondo's shooting? You think he'll shoot 40% on jumpers? So what? How does that opinion matter at all? This of course ignores the fact too that his shooting percentages on jumpers went DOWN last year from the previous year from and eFG% of .422 to the dismal .375 he posted. So your idea that he'll "continue to improve" when he's currently regressing is on the whole pretty funny in a sad way.

 

And Larry Hughes was only considered a "good" defender by complete morons. His team(s) would repeatedly get torched by his man because he'd leave them wide open in favor of sagging off his man for weakside steals and playing passing lanes(hey, Rondo does that too!), and got badly exposed as a gambler and terrible man defender when he was all of a sudden on a team that actually cared about defense just enough that he could no longer blame those failures on team philosophy or his teammates like he did in Golden State and Washington.

Your right Rondo sucks, he might be the worst PG in the NBA. He also has not improved at all since coming to the NBA a s 20 year old kid. He is past his prime and we will see a slow decline in his numbers from now until he retires.

 

Finally VaBch you're now talking sense - good to see. Like I said before Rondo sucks.

[Knappy 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

 

quote:

Don't post anything if you aren't ready to hear criticism.

 

quote:

but saying oh thats laughable makes you sound ignorant.

 

quote:

Rondo is the best defensive PG in the NBA, and the fact that you think he is bad defensively means i can't take anything you say seriously.

 

quote:

Dude you have lost your mind.

 

 

What's sad is that I pulled all of those from just this thread. You act like I'm somehow some big scary meanie, and yet here you've been acting superior and condescending this entire thread. The only difference between you and me in this case is that I've actually bothered to fact check my arguments and you haven't. Does it surprise me that you haven't responded to a single criticism I've made of your points in this thread(except, bizarrely, insisting Jameer was still in a slump during a stretch where I proved statistically he wasn't in the post you quoted)? Not at all.

 

Does it surprise me you ignored Lewis4thewin's post about how your point about Parker was completely retarded? Nope. Not a bit.

 

Does it surprise me that your only defense of your "Parker is the league's best point guard" was titles, ignoring that Chris Paul never got to play with prime Tim Duncan and Parker did, a logical leap that is almost too stupid to contemplate? Again, not for a second.

 

Frankly, the only thing surprising about your interactions with the rest of us poor, heathen masses is the fact that you haven't pointed out that your dad was a scout yet in this thread.

 

And I figure if you're allowed to referencing things out of context and act like they're offensive, I would imagine I can too. Also, since you've decided that my saying "Rondo isn't a great man defender because he sags off his man and gambles for steals" is the same as saying "Rondo is sieve on defense," I'm going to interpret you're saying "Rondo is the best defensive point guard in the NBA", actually, that's already a really retarded point to make, so I won't bother. Chauncey Billups is a substantially better defender than Rondo is. So I don't even need to twist your words. Your words are already ignorant enough as it is. And nevermind the fact that my "typing nonsense on my computer" was a description of what Rondo does on defense, either. It doesn't fit your "Rondo is king" worldview, so I must be hating on him.

 

As for Hughes, I can't believe this is actually still discussed. You honestly think Hughes is a GOOD defensive player? Really? I thought the sports world all collectively decided to stop pretending that was remotely true around 2005.

 

Now go take your ball and go home.

 

I responded to most of what you said and did not respond to the things that didn't deserve a response. As far as Parker I said many things other than he has more championships but I'm not going to repeat myself a million times, i cant type fast at all.

 

I don't think Rondo is king, i think he's better than Meer. Which is what this was about and you have not said your opinion on the matter yet. The best 4 pgs in the league are all in the West. I really don't care what you write, and to be honest anything you post is usually I'm right and your wrong. Once again I can see the argument that Billups is better, even though at his age now I doubt it. Thats fine its your opinion, but to say Rondo is a bad man defender is simply not true.

 

Most of the stuff discussed on this board can have numerous right answers and thats why the NBA is great. Hidden gems, better personnel, better coaches. So I understand that one answer is usually not correct. But when people say oh meer is better defensively than Rondo and Gorat can dunk from the free throw line blah blah it complete Homerism. 75% of this bard has no idea about basketball other than Orlando and what ESPN tells them. Thats fine, I'm just going to try and share a more objective opinion. As far a Hughes he was a good defender in his prime, He's not a good player anymore period but their was a time when he was a top 5 on the ball defender. Coaches in the NBA said so, and to be honest I trust them rather than a guy who has probably never been to an NBA practice.

 

Oh why not, I have a few minutes to make you look silly some more:

 

quote:

I responded to most of what you said and did not respond to the things that didn't deserve a response.

 

So you're going to argue that all opinions deserve respect, except the ones you say don't. That's something, I guess.

 

quote:

As far as Parker I said many things other than he has more championships but I'm not going to repeat myself a million times, i cant type fast at all.

 

Actually, what you said was that Parker was the best player on the Spurs(he isn't), that Duncan missed a lot of time last season(he didn't), that Chris Paul plays on mediocre teams(he doesn't), that Paul doesn't show up in big games(career averages of 22/4.8/11 in the playoffs), and that Paul stat pads on mediocre teams(his team has averaged 52.5 wins over the last two seasons, 45.5 in his career, with him having no help). You seem to think that pointing out when you're making arguments that are factually inaccurate is rude. I think you saying things that are wildly inaccurate is rude, because I have to sit through them. So be polite: fact check.

 

quote:

I don't think Rondo is king, i think he's better than Meer. Which is what this was about and you have not said your opinion on the matter yet.

 

I think one is a highly skilled, but undisciplined, offensive player and an average to slightly below average defensive player who is slightly overrated on both ends, but particularly on offense due to his situation. I think the other is a highly skilled, but undisciplined, defensive player and an average to slightly below average offensive player who is slightly overrated, particularly on defense, because of his situation.

 

quote:

I really don't care what you write, and to be honest anything you post is usually I'm right and your wrong.

 

Because I'm pointing out where you are saying things that are, on the most basic factual level, wrong? Ok. I guess that's something I'm ok with.

 

quote:

Once again I can see the argument that Billups is better, even though at his age now I doubt it.

 

What does his age have to do with his defense? Billups is younger than KG and Duncan. Are KG and Duncan no longer the best defenders at power forward because of their age?

 

I also don't really see how this is even arguable. All this overrating of Rondo has seemingly come from his performance in the playoffs, which is fine, but the complete lack of defense he played on Rose should be shown in basketball clinics as what not to do. And while rookie Rose was getting whatever he wanted on offense, Billups was locking Chris Paul up like a drum.

 

quote:

Thats fine its your opinion, but to say Rondo is a bad man defender is simply not true.

 

Once again: at no point in this thread or any other did I say Rondo was a bad man defender. I said he wasn't a great defender. There's like, 8 levels of defender between those two statements. Your refusal to acknowledge that what I said and what you're claiming I said are in no way the same thing betrays either a horrible lack of basic reading comprehension or an unbelievable level of stubbornness to refuse to admit that you confused my post with someone else.

Moving on.

 

quote:

Most of the stuff discussed on this board can have numerous right answers and thats why the NBA is great. Hidden gems, better personnel, better coaches. So I understand that one answer is usually not correct. But when people say oh meer is better defensively than Rondo and Gorat can dunk from the free throw line blah blah it complete Homerism.

 

A couple things here. First of all, Gortat CAN dunk from the free throw line. There have been multiple articles confirming it, including one about where he did it on a bet with Pietrus and demanded to be paid in Euros. He also did it in a dunk contest in Europe.

 

Second: it is absolutely remarkable to me that you would write: "I understand that one answer is usually not correct"(I'm assuming you meant that "NOT JUST one answer is usually not correct", since otherwise your paragraph makes absolutely no sense), but then you contradict that logic completely in the next freaking sentence by saying that certain opinions that you disagree with are homerism.

 

I'm not even saying that an opinion like "Jameer is an awesome defensive juggernaut" wouldn't be homerism. I'm just not the one trying to claim that if something is an opinion, it can't be wrong.

 

quote:

75% of this bard has no idea about basketball other than Orlando and what ESPN tells them. Thats fine, I'm just going to try and share a more objective opinion.

 

Board. There's an O.

 

And unless you're actually a robot, your opinion isn't objective. It's an opinion, from a person. That means it is, by its nature, SUBjective.

 

You know what is objective though? Stats. Hence why, when writing a post like this about what I think, I make sure that my perception of what's occurring jives with the statistical facts of the situation, because in any situation where your opinion doesn't jive with the facts, I can almost guarantee that the facts won't turn out to be wrong.

 

quote:

As far a Hughes he was a good defender in his prime, He's not a good player anymore period but their was a time when he was a top 5 on the ball defender. Coaches in the NBA said so, and to be honest I trust them rather than a guy who has probably never been to an NBA practice.

 

Ignoring for a second that this goes completely in the face of your "Everyone's entitled to their opinion" logic, since it's an ancient "one paragraph ago", I'm curious. By all means, avail me with quotations from these NBA coaches who showered praise on the man to man defense of Larry Hughes. If you provide such quotes from, oh, lets say 5 coaches from that era, I'll readily concede this point to you.

 

LOL, Dom - very entertaining.

[COLOMBIANO 118]

quote:

Originally posted by Knappy:

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

quote:

Originally posted by VaBchMagicFan:

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

 

quote:

Don't post anything if you aren't ready to hear criticism.

 

quote:

but saying oh thats laughable makes you sound ignorant.

 

quote:

Rondo is the best defensive PG in the NBA, and the fact that you think he is bad defensively means i can't take anything you say seriously.

 

quote:

Dude you have lost your mind.

 

 

What's sad is that I pulled all of those from just this thread. You act like I'm somehow some big scary meanie, and yet here you've been acting superior and condescending this entire thread. The only difference between you and me in this case is that I've actually bothered to fact check my arguments and you haven't. Does it surprise me that you haven't responded to a single criticism I've made of your points in this thread(except, bizarrely, insisting Jameer was still in a slump during a stretch where I proved statistically he wasn't in the post you quoted)? Not at all.

 

Does it surprise me you ignored Lewis4thewin's post about how your point about Parker was completely retarded? Nope. Not a bit.

 

Does it surprise me that your only defense of your "Parker is the league's best point guard" was titles, ignoring that Chris Paul never got to play with prime Tim Duncan and Parker did, a logical leap that is almost too stupid to contemplate? Again, not for a second.

 

Frankly, the only thing surprising about your interactions with the rest of us poor, heathen masses is the fact that you haven't pointed out that your dad was a scout yet in this thread.

 

And I figure if you're allowed to referencing things out of context and act like they're offensive, I would imagine I can too. Also, since you've decided that my saying "Rondo isn't a great man defender because he sags off his man and gambles for steals" is the same as saying "Rondo is sieve on defense," I'm going to interpret you're saying "Rondo is the best defensive point guard in the NBA", actually, that's already a really retarded point to make, so I won't bother. Chauncey Billups is a substantially better defender than Rondo is. So I don't even need to twist your words. Your words are already ignorant enough as it is. And nevermind the fact that my "typing nonsense on my computer" was a description of what Rondo does on defense, either. It doesn't fit your "Rondo is king" worldview, so I must be hating on him.

 

As for Hughes, I can't believe this is actually still discussed. You honestly think Hughes is a GOOD defensive player? Really? I thought the sports world all collectively decided to stop pretending that was remotely true around 2005.

 

Now go take your ball and go home.

 

I responded to most of what you said and did not respond to the things that didn't deserve a response. As far as Parker I said many things other than he has more championships but I'm not going to repeat myself a million times, i cant type fast at all.

 

I don't think Rondo is king, i think he's better than Meer. Which is what this was about and you have not said your opinion on the matter yet. The best 4 pgs in the league are all in the West. I really don't care what you write, and to be honest anything you post is usually I'm right and your wrong. Once again I can see the argument that Billups is better, even though at his age now I doubt it. Thats fine its your opinion, but to say Rondo is a bad man defender is simply not true.

 

Most of the stuff discussed on this board can have numerous right answers and thats why the NBA is great. Hidden gems, better personnel, better coaches. So I understand that one answer is usually not correct. But when people say oh meer is better defensively than Rondo and Gorat can dunk from the free throw line blah blah it complete Homerism. 75% of this bard has no idea about basketball other than Orlando and what ESPN tells them. Thats fine, I'm just going to try and share a more objective opinion. As far a Hughes he was a good defender in his prime, He's not a good player anymore period but their was a time when he was a top 5 on the ball defender. Coaches in the NBA said so, and to be honest I trust them rather than a guy who has probably never been to an NBA practice.

 

Oh why not, I have a few minutes to make you look silly some more:

 

quote:

I responded to most of what you said and did not respond to the things that didn't deserve a response.

 

So you're going to argue that all opinions deserve respect, except the ones you say don't. That's something, I guess.

 

quote:

As far as Parker I said many things other than he has more championships but I'm not going to repeat myself a million times, i cant type fast at all.

 

Actually, what you said was that Parker was the best player on the Spurs(he isn't), that Duncan missed a lot of time last season(he didn't), that Chris Paul plays on mediocre teams(he doesn't), that Paul doesn't show up in big games(career averages of 22/4.8/11 in the playoffs), and that Paul stat pads on mediocre teams(his team has averaged 52.5 wins over the last two seasons, 45.5 in his career, with him having no help). You seem to think that pointing out when you're making arguments that are factually inaccurate is rude. I think you saying things that are wildly inaccurate is rude, because I have to sit through them. So be polite: fact check.

 

quote:

I don't think Rondo is king, i think he's better than Meer. Which is what this was about and you have not said your opinion on the matter yet.

 

I think one is a highly skilled, but undisciplined, offensive player and an average to slightly below average defensive player who is slightly overrated on both ends, but particularly on offense due to his situation. I think the other is a highly skilled, but undisciplined, defensive player and an average to slightly below average offensive player who is slightly overrated, particularly on defense, because of his situation.

 

quote:

I really don't care what you write, and to be honest anything you post is usually I'm right and your wrong.

 

Because I'm pointing out where you are saying things that are, on the most basic factual level, wrong? Ok. I guess that's something I'm ok with.

 

quote:

Once again I can see the argument that Billups is better, even though at his age now I doubt it.

 

What does his age have to do with his defense? Billups is younger than KG and Duncan. Are KG and Duncan no longer the best defenders at power forward because of their age?

 

I also don't really see how this is even arguable. All this overrating of Rondo has seemingly come from his performance in the playoffs, which is fine, but the complete lack of defense he played on Rose should be shown in basketball clinics as what not to do. And while rookie Rose was getting whatever he wanted on offense, Billups was locking Chris Paul up like a drum.

 

quote:

Thats fine its your opinion, but to say Rondo is a bad man defender is simply not true.

 

Once again: at no point in this thread or any other did I say Rondo was a bad man defender. I said he wasn't a great defender. There's like, 8 levels of defender between those two statements. Your refusal to acknowledge that what I said and what you're claiming I said are in no way the same thing betrays either a horrible lack of basic reading comprehension or an unbelievable level of stubbornness to refuse to admit that you confused my post with someone else.

Moving on.

 

quote:

Most of the stuff discussed on this board can have numerous right answers and thats why the NBA is great. Hidden gems, better personnel, better coaches. So I understand that one answer is usually not correct. But when people say oh meer is better defensively than Rondo and Gorat can dunk from the free throw line blah blah it complete Homerism.

 

A couple things here. First of all, Gortat CAN dunk from the free throw line. There have been multiple articles confirming it, including one about where he did it on a bet with Pietrus and demanded to be paid in Euros. He also did it in a dunk contest in Europe.

 

Second: it is absolutely remarkable to me that you would write: "I understand that one answer is usually not correct"(I'm assuming you meant that "NOT JUST one answer is usually not correct", since otherwise your paragraph makes absolutely no sense), but then you contradict that logic completely in the next freaking sentence by saying that certain opinions that you disagree with are homerism.

 

I'm not even saying that an opinion like "Jameer is an awesome defensive juggernaut" wouldn't be homerism. I'm just not the one trying to claim that if something is an opinion, it can't be wrong.

 

quote:

75% of this bard has no idea about basketball other than Orlando and what ESPN tells them. Thats fine, I'm just going to try and share a more objective opinion.

 

Board. There's an O.

 

And unless you're actually a robot, your opinion isn't objective. It's an opinion, from a person. That means it is, by its nature, SUBjective.

 

You know what is objective though? Stats. Hence why, when writing a post like this about what I think, I make sure that my perception of what's occurring jives with the statistical facts of the situation, because in any situation where your opinion doesn't jive with the facts, I can almost guarantee that the facts won't turn out to be wrong.

 

quote:

As far a Hughes he was a good defender in his prime, He's not a good player anymore period but their was a time when he was a top 5 on the ball defender. Coaches in the NBA said so, and to be honest I trust them rather than a guy who has probably never been to an NBA practice.

 

Ignoring for a second that this goes completely in the face of your "Everyone's entitled to their opinion" logic, since it's an ancient "one paragraph ago", I'm curious. By all means, avail me with quotations from these NBA coaches who showered praise on the man to man defense of Larry Hughes. If you provide such quotes from, oh, lets say 5 coaches from that era, I'll readily concede this point to you.

 

LOL, Dom - very entertaining.

 

When searching in google in Hughes was a good defender i got a Did you mean: Larry Hughes a bad defender?

[Peaceful Cavalier23 0]

The Magic complaining about disrespect... What else is new?

[Emory889 353]

quote:

Originally posted by Peaceful Cavalier23:

The Magic complaining about disrespect... What else is new?

 

It is rather pathetic. Some posters act like these silly rankings will somehow affect how the players perform. Eh, its the summer and there is little to talk about.

[Voltaire 0]

Please wake up from that dream

who's better rondo or Nelson

in the 2008 olympic version

it was the old man Kid leading the team....

[Kramer 0]

quote:

Originally posted by COLOMBIANO:

When searching in google in Hughes was a good defender i got a Did you mean: Larry Hughes a bad defender?

 

I read this like 8 times before I finally busted out laughing.