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Franchise408

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Everything posted by Franchise408

  1. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    I've already gone in depth as to why I wanted Isaiah and why he would be perfect here. But here's to another year of counting on Gordon and Fournier to be the top 2 scoring options, taking on more responsibility than they are capable of, and wasting away another season in obscurity because we refuse to bring in talent when we have the chance.
  2. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    I mean, I love our "big 3" of young developing talent, but the closest thing any of those 3 are to an All-Star game is Aaron Gordon in the dunk contest.
  3. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    It's literally as "no risk" as you can possibly get in professional sports. 1 year rental that is an improvement over what we already have, and if he's not, we're no worse roster wise than we were before signing him, with no long term cap implications, and no use of the short term cap space that we're saving by not signing him. If we needed the cap space to sign someone else this year and so we had to pass on Isaiah to do it, then you'd have a point. But they've already said they aren't signing anyone else this off-season so passing on Isaiah doesn't even allow us to use the money on something else.
  4. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    First of all, I am sorry to hear about your father in law. I hope that everything is on an upswing? The 76ers are basically an outlier. You mention that you'd take only 1 championship if that's what a LeBron brought to your organization, and that's valid, but the history shows that you are not likely to get that championship with said player. And then you mention the Warriors and Durant - while he was a #2 pick, he was not -their- #2 pick. He was picked by another team, and then came over as a free agent. They did not tank to get him. And before he got there, they were doing pretty good already with 2 Finals appearances, 1 win, and the single seasons wins record. They tanked for 20+ years before luck finally favored them with Curry at #7, and then Klay and Draymond in the mid lottery and 2nd round. Those weren't picks that they purposefully had to tank for. Again, Philly is really the only team that's showing any sort of success from the tanking model, and it is yet to be determined just how much success they will actually have. As of now, it's been a single post season appearance to the 2nd round. Also, how long have they had to be employing this tanking philosophy in order to reach the 2nd round?? Adam Silver is addressing the issue, not because it's working (it's not), but because probably about 60-70% of the league that is not Golden State, Cleveland (or this coming year, Los Angeles), San Antonio, Houston, Boston, Toronto, or Philly have been tanking and it's making the game absolutely unwatchable. Even I only watched a handful of Magic games this year because honestly, it's demoralizing to watch your team when you know the powers that be are purposefully trying to lose. You have a small handful of teams that are championship contenders, and everyone else is trying to tank out. It kills any entertainment value of watching the game. That is what Adam Silver is looking to address. Not the fact that one outlier franchise actually had it work for them. And again, there's also a difference between naturally tanking because of circumstance (every team is going to have highs and lows), which actually isn't tanking. It's the natural ebb and flow of sports. And a difference between that and purposefully tanking, purposefully signing lesser players to purposefully lose more games to have a goal of a higher draft pick. The Lakers aren't purposefully tanking. A top 5 all time player retired, and they are trying to move on from that. The Mavericks aren't having success via tanking. The Suns have had no success yet, and you can't say that getting Ayton will put them over. I just look through history, and I do -not- see tanking as being a successful model to turn a team around. Instead, it far more often than not buries a team to years (or sometimes even decades) of mediocrity. You can talk about getting that 1 championship all you want, but even if it does come, odds and numbers are that it's going to take you a decade + of tanking before that player comes along. Appreciate the response. Definitely gonna disagree tho lol. The problem wasn't that we went into a "win now" philosophy. The problem was that we went into a "win now" philosophy with a horrible roster that was nowhere close to competing, and traded away our best player for a 4th option who isn't a player who has the capability of being "the guy" on his own. Ibaka was a mid tier player that we over valued because he was on the stacked OKC roster, and we traded away our best player and a 1st rounder to get him, when our roster was nowhere near competing. Who says we're gonna get him in free agency? A tanking franchise with no cap space and no legitimate stars to play alongside doesn't really have much appeal for star players in free agency.
  5. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    There was literally -no- risk for us to take a chance on him. We have no starting caliber PG. He would have been an instant upgrade. If his injuries were too much and he wouldn't be able to play, or his performance was bad, it would have been a 1 year contract at the minimum, we'd be in the same position we are now, with no long term cap ramifications. But if he was able to return to form and have success, we'd be better off with him. There was literally no negative and only positives to signing Isaiah Thomas. And considering we aren't going to use this year's cap space on anything anyways, it's not like we had to pass on Thomas so that we could sign someone else. Sorry, there's no convincing me that not signing him was a good move. Even if he was injured and didn't play a single game, or sucked when he did play, we would literally be no worse off than we are right now. This was a bad move on the part of the front office. And I don't care about "length". There's more important things that go into a good basketball player than "length". Sounds like Al Davis and the Raiders with his "speed". *sigh*
  6. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    Wait, IT got the minimum and we passed on him?? fml
  7. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    Thanks, Henny.
  8. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    But they really aren't. And I just showed examples to show that it's true. The odds at least aren't better enough to warrant intentionally driving your franchise into the dirt to get a slightly higher pick. Agreed, and it's one reason why I'm less of a frequent poster than I used to be. It's not intellectually dishonest, I already explained (and you avoided) that I misread and thought you included 2017 and 2018 in your posts. I was reading and posting while I was at work, and in reading quickly, I misread dates being used in your data. Instead of simply correcting me and responding to my mention of Fultz and Ayton with "I didn't include them in my data, because I didn't count the 2017 and 2018 drafts", you automatically went to the "intellectually dishonest" card. Simply because I disagree with your argument. There was no adjusted sample size. By including Fultz and Ayton, that actually made for examples 21 and 22, not 19 and 20, meaning by removing them, we are working with the same sample size. I.E. a "counting error" P.S.: I've never changed the goalposts. I have elaborated on my use of the term "bust" (something you again have avoided), and I have explained both 1.) my argument and the criteria for it and 2.) elaborated on my usage of terms to show that I have moved no goalposts. And in response to the Golden State example that was brought up earlier - yes, I know how many winning seasons Golden State has had before the Curry era. I live in the Bay Area. Current success aside (which was NOT built off of high lottery picks), Golden State is a perfect example of why tanking doesn't work. That franchise was a crap ball for decades before luck finally favored them (at the #7 pick, NOT a top lottery pick - and for the response that "#7 isn't that low" - it's certainly low enough that the fanbase blames this franchise for poor management when we win an additional game that drops us from 3 to 4, sooooo.....). They had to wait decades before they found their fortune. Again, not exactly a viable team building strategy.
  9. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    First of all, Brand was drafted by the Bulls, not the Clippers. So the fact that you're even talking about the Clippers proves my point about #1 overall picks rarely changing the fortunes of the franchise that drafted them. Secondly, Elton Brand was a good player, no doubt. But 20 / 10 is hardly franchise changing, and hardly worth setting your organization back for years with a tank philosophy to get him.
  10. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    It's not the solution. Period. Your point basically proves it. Success comes from overall team building from all the means available to you. Not by tanking and hoping you get the right pick at the right time. You're putting the entire fate of your franchise on the wings of chance. Teams that have success used various means at their disposal. The draft is a huge part of that. But tanking for the #1 pick isn't. The most successful team of the moment, and nearing the discussion for the greatest team ever assembled, doesn't have a single #1 pick on it. It has mid lottery picks, a 2nd rounder, and free agents. They never had a single #1 pick. Philly may or may end up being one of the outliers that has success with tanking. But they are an outlier. Not the trend, and not an example that tanking is a viable philosophy.
  11. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    No, I'm not. I misread your 2016 and thought you wrote 2018. Just because my point still stands doesnt mean I'm dishonest.
  12. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    So then Fultz and Ayton would be years 21 and 22. So you're right that its 8/20 that weren't franchise changers. So 12 / 20 that were. So I'll concede the 60/40 split. But my point still stands that only 2 of those guys have won a championship with the team that originally drafted them. Only 5 of them have even gotten to the Finals with their original team. So 1 out of 4. Every 4 years, 1 player will come along that will change the fortunes of his team to get to a championship round. Every 10 years, 1 player will come along that actually wins his team a championship. That is NOT worth tanking an entire franchise for.
  13. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    The purpose of tanking is to get a franchise changing player. Not Elton Brand or Kenyon Martin. So yes, under that criteria, they are busts, and it happens at about equal rates to getting a player who justifies the spot.
  14. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    Which is exactly why I stated 8/17 or so. Fultz is a question mark. Ayton hasn't even played.
  15. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    Yes, because "bust" can ONLY mean a player who ends up ducking horribly. "A draft bust occurs when a highly touted or highly selected draftee does not meet expectations. This can be for a variety of reasons, but the most often noted are injury or inability to perform at a professional level. A player is also regarded as a larger bust if more successful players are drafted after him or her."
  16. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    Oh so you've seen Ayton's career already. Awesome. But I'm the dishonest one?
  17. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    Only because the last 2 or 3 are still up in the air. One of them hasn't even played a game yet. So you're looking at closer to 8 / 16 or 8 / 17 that weren't franchise changing players. So yea. 50 / 50.
  18. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    Non franchise changing #1 overall picks since 1997 Olowakandi, Elton Brand, Kenyon Martin, Kwame Brown, Andrew Bogut, Andrea Bargnani, Greg Oden, Anthony Bennett, and the #1 picks since 2016 are still too recent to tell. So yea, that's about 50% of them that aren't working tanking your franchise for. They might not have been full busts, but definitely not worth sinking an entire franchise for. The ones that weren't bust, theres even less of them that ended up bringing a championship to their original team. Tanking doesnt work. Plain and simple. I don't even see how it's arguable at this point, it's so clearly a failed philosophy.
  19. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    Above .500 I think that's a *really* optimistic view of this roster.
  20. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    I don't think we're "much" better with Vuc starting or on the bench. On the bench, we are starting an unpolished rookie who may or may not be ready for the real show. I'm not for or against starting Bamba over Vuc. We're not making playoffs this year anyways so if it's more beneficial to Bamba's development to start, then he should start. But I don't think that makes us "much" better, if even better at all. At least not this year. Long term? Possibly. Again, it depends on whether Bamba's long term development will be better starting or coming off the bench. And his long term development should be a focus over being "better" this year.
  21. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    With *our* players you do. I think you greatly overestimate how good our players actually are. We do *not* have a playoff caliber roster.
  22. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    I don't agree with tanking, because you are purposefully sinking your team and developing a losing culture, all on the hopes that you win the lottery in the draft and get the right positioning, at a time when a franchise changing player is available. It is far too fickle to bank on as a viable rebuilding strategy. You can go back about 20 years or so, and the #1 overall pick is about a 50-50 at best of landing a player that is or isn't a bust. The # of teams that have successfully rebuilt their franchise into champions is even less. The premiere franchise in the league right now is doing it with 2 mid lottery picks, a 2nd rounder, and a free agent. Cleveland won 0 champions with a drafted LeBron James, and it wasn't until he came back as a free agent that they won 1 championship. The Spurs are the big example of a team who build a dynasty off the back of Tim Duncan, a guy who they paired with David Robinson who was hurt the previous year, the only reason they had the #1 pick to begin with. They didn't intentionally tank. Celtics are an asterisk because they won their championship with high draft picks that were traded. The Magic build a 2 year contender off the back of a #1 overall pick, but never won a championship, losing to a superstar that was drafted in mid lottery. One of the few non Lakers, Celtics, LeBron, or Warriors teams to win a championship was the Mavericks who won it off the mid lottery drafted Dirk Nowitzki. Basically, what I'm saying is that in the past 20 or so years, the only "tank" draft picks that won a championship with the original team that drafted them were Tim Duncan, Dwyane Wade, and Kyrie Irving, and 2 of those guys won it with major free agent help (Wade: Shaq, and later LeBron and Bosh. Irving: LeBron) So basically the strategy of tanking means you're gonna be the ONE team in about a span of a decade that drafts someone who will bring you a championship. Those are not viable odds to rely your entire team rebuilding strategy on. Of course, teams are going to naturally "tank" by circumstance - I.E. when Dwight left, of *course* the Magic were going to suck, but circumstance. I don't blame Hennigan for our first couple years being bad. But I do blame him for employing a strategy that simply doesn't work, and has been proven time and time again to not work, and not taking any other initiatives to improve the team. I get that as an organization, the Magic have had a lot of success with the #1 overall pick in the draft, and not a lot of success outside of that spot. But just because we've had poor decisions being made in the past does not mean that tanking for the #1 pick is the only viable way to build a team. As I've stated above, it's actually the least viable way to build your team. Just as many teams have won and competed with no big time players (ala the 2004 Pistons) as have won with their original top 3 draft pick.
  23. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    Even with a healthy team, this is a 35 win roster as currently construction. As long as we have DJ Augustine and Jarian Grant as our PG's, we are not a threat or a contender. If we address the PG means, either through possible and available means (i.e. Isaiah Thomas), or some other splash via trade (which will probably gut the roster otherwise), we can be an 8th, or maybe even 7th or 6th seed in the East. But as constructed, even healthy, there's no way we are competing for playoffs. Whatever optimism we may have about Gordon, Isaac, and Bamba, and their future development, they are not at present, nor possibly ever will be, the kinds of #1 guys you build a team around. Gordon, Isaac, Bamba, Fournier, etc. need a legitimate player alongside them.
  24. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    You can call it luck if you want, and luck certainly plays a major factor (Exhibit A against tanking), but I do believe there was another player coming out in that draft who was widely considered to be the better NBA talent. It was our front office, our GM, that made the (correct) decision to acquire that player, against loads of logic stating otherwise. But don't let the actual decisions made by both front offices in question actually get in the way of the argument, right? Poor Rob just had bad luck. He should have been given 15 years to continue driving this franchise into the ground, because eventually "luck" would go his way and he'd look good. Right? Use Dwight Howard to excuse Hennigan all you want. Your sole job is to improve the team and make it the best that it can be. When the team didn't improve in 5 years, you failed at your job. Within that same time frame after losing a franchise turning player, Weisbrod and later Smith had turned this franchise completely around. So much so, in fact, that LeBron had to take his talents to South Beach. Maybe if he didn't employ the "tank" philosophy, he wouldn't have had to rely on luck, which was out of his control, and perhaps he could still have his job. You play the lottery, you lose. Don't tank if you can't handle the results.
  25. 2018 Official Offseason Thread

    I'm not being dishonest about anything. This franchise was light years away from contending the entire time Hennigan was in charge. There was absolutely no reason to trade away our top young player, and another 1st round draft pick, for Ibaka who was a glorified role player with success playing alongside Durant, Westbrook, and Harden. That move was awful in every sense of the word. While trading for Arenas was also awful, at least the team was in somewhat of a contention window at the time, so bringing in a vet like Arenas made a lot more sense. Especially since Rashard Lewis was on the decline and on a max contract. Just because other bad franchises do the same thing doesn't mean that we should too. Would be better to make no move than to overpay for mediocre talent and hinder this franchise for the foreseeable future from being able to make any sort of improvement.
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