The Road to the White House

[Berto 338]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

quote:

Originally posted by Kberto:

Why is it always the dirty "liberals?" What does that situation have anything to do with liberilsm? Their answer to that problem is idiotic, not liberal.

 

First of all, I didn't say anything about liberals being dirty, so keep that assumption to yourself. Second, it is a liberal practice to not only forgive misconduct, but to encourage it further by failing to establish consequnces that would serve to disuade that action in the first place.

 

Well im a liberal and I don't agree with that characterization. It's really easy to put people in boxes.

 

If it was my decision, that particular student would of been reprimanded. If it continued I would of handed out a suspension. But under your blanket statement, all liberals are for "forgiving misconduct."

 

That would be like me saying all conservatives think gay people will burn in hell. Some do, but not all.

 

You have problems with the school system, good we all should have problems with it. But the finger pointing needs to stop. That's why Washington is pathetic. They rather blame each other than solve anything. It's all about scoring political points. Stop the name calling. Stop the finger pointing. Slove the problems.

 

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[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

Third, I was not making a generalized statement. I was reporting the political affiliation of a large percentage of the staff members that suggested this partcular recourse as reported by my friend who sat on the panel.

 

A country full of Christians proclaim that all Jews should be exterminated.

 

Therefore, it is acceptable to say that Christians believe Jews should be exterminated, based off one example where a large number of people who fit into one mold agree to something that may or may not reflect the views of the overarching populous?

[TheREALBrooksThompson 157]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

Third, I was not making a generalized statement. I was reporting the political affiliation of a large percentage of the staff members that suggested this partcular recourse as reported by my friend who sat on the panel.

 

I must not know what a generalization is. I'm going to look it up.

[SmackDaddy 30]

Seriously guys???

 

I said that it was a liberal practice. I didn't call anybody names. I certainly didn't say all liberals subscribe to this thinking.

 

You're attempting to paint me in a light that is not accurate. I am very opinionated on these matters myself, but I am also very understanding that other's opinions will not always correlate with my own, and rightfully so. I respect your ability to generate an opinion that difers from mine. Allow me the same courtesy.

[Berto 338]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

Seriously guys???

 

I said that it was a liberal practice. I didn't call anybody names. I certainly didn't say all liberals subscribe to this thinking.

 

You're attempting to paint me in a light that is not accurate. I am very opinionated on these matters myself, but I am also very understanding that other's opinions will not always correlate with my own, and rightfully so. I respect your ability to generate an opinion that difers from mine. Allow me the same courtesy.

 

You can hold whatever opinons you'd like. That's the beauty of America.

 

You probably didn't mean to make a broad statement, but that's how it came across from my perspective.

 

If I came across as angry or resentful that wasn't my intention. I just wanted to point out what I disagreed with.

 

This is cliche, but the world would be boring if everyone thought the same.

[JonBoy418 0]

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

quote:

Originally posted by KillingInTheNameOf:

Talk to teachers in the public school system and ask them about the dynamics in their class rooms. They will overwhelming tell you that 3/4 unruly students in every class of 30 make educating the remaining students increasing difficult.

 

What's the natural reaction to this? Kick em out of class, suspend em, expell em, don't punish the 26/27 students interested in learning for the 3 or 4 bad apples, right?

 

Actually, it's being handled in the exact opposite way in schools these days.

 

After having our discussion about the education system the last few days, I called up a good friend of mine who is a teacher at a school in a low-income neighborhood. He reported one incident where there was one particular child who was disrupting class by consistently arriving late to class every period, every day. The faculty and principles met to determine a solution. The solution that the majority of instructors and most notably the principles and AP's decided upon was to allow this one student to leave class 3 minutes early every period. They figured that he was showing up late to class because he didn't have enough time between classes to loiter long enough in the halls with his friends.

 

This is the biggest, most impactful, liberal way of handling problems that has permiated not only our schools, but our businesses, our government, and our scoiety as a whole. The notion that bad behavior should be rewarded is azzinine. It only leads to more and more misbehavior.

 

All this talk about education, and I need to join in since it is a political passion for me. My wife taught 7th grade English in a bad area of Tallahassee and in a good area of Orlando. She has great views on education as well and is a great source on the politics of education. With her, I think I view things a little different than most people.

 

I agree with Smack that money can help lower level children in education by providing them computers, updated text books etc... but it's not going to solve the problem. It's a parent's responsibility to be involved in their child's education. Poor, rich, black, white, you show an indifferent parent, I'll show you a poor student.

 

Instead, a vast majority of parents treat school as a glorified day car. Drop them off, out of their hair. Then turn around and blame the teacher when their child is failing. In reality, a teacher spends approximately one hour per day, five days a week with that particular student. A parent spends over 100 hours per week with their child, 20 times as long. There is a greater oppurtunity for that student to learn work ethic skills, study skills and determination (all skills necassary to succeed in school) from that parent.

 

To start to address that concern (because it will most certainity will never be fixed) you need a special type of teacher. You need a teacher with specialized skills to reach the student and to sell the parent on effecitvely educating their child. In Orange County, a teacher is paid the same, regardless of working at Winter Park High vs. Jones High. I think thats a problem. The Jones job is much more demanding and requiring a specialized skill set. With that additional skill, there should be a wage differential. You want that 3-1 funding gap, put it in the teachers pocket (not all funding, mind you) and allow for the school's administration to be more selective in the hiring process.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

But to broadenize the education system, I think there's an inherent flaw in the "No Child Left Behind Act" I can't speak for other states, but here in Florida, that created the FCAT. It's a great system in theory, but put it in practice, it's degrading our educational system. It's provides better funding for higher graded schools, giving under performing schools an incentive to raise their grade.

 

The problem now is that administrators and superintendants now focus on the lower level student to increase his test grades, therefore raising the schools grade. With all that focus, the overacheiving student is being lost. If a child gets an A on the FCAT, then there really much emphasis put into further developing his education. Whereas an F student gets school sponsered tutoring sessions, he gets streamlined (which you are probably describing Smack), and gets a lot more teacher involvement.

 

For this reason above, I do not agree that each child's education should be equal. A child with a 140 IQ should not have the same education, teachers, ciriculum and tools as a child with a 90. Education should strive for each student to try and reach the next level his or her intelectual potential, but because of the FCAT and No Child Left Behind, all the focus is on the lower level student.

 

It's causing our low level students to become average students, our average students to stay average students and our great students to become good students. Frankly, we're creating an education system that perpetuates and strives for mediocrity.

[SmackDaddy 30]

From what I understand of the FCAT, it also puts such a large emphasis on the test results, that teachers are being instructed to mainly focus on preparing these students to pass the FCAT, and most other areas of curriculum are being largely ignored.

[Ned Ryerson 94]

quote:

Originally posted by Osprey23:

quote:

Originally posted by WPMagic:

Osprey, school vouchers are just more big evil government.

 

Since the gov't already controls the school system, and funds it, I would rather the money go to allowing choice than simply dumping it on failing schools hoping improvements occur.

 

I understand that argument and it makes sense. A hardworking student should get the same opportunity of a quality education that I was fortunate to have. However, it would further leave the community behind. Before segregation black communities were full of educated, influential figures. They lived there because, well, they didn't have a choice. Following desegregation many of the community leaders left. Their absence accompanied with the already striking poverty and lack of education overall continue to drastically burden these communities. Vouchers further this flight of potential leaders. I'm not saying that they should stick it out and spend their life working on what is turning out to be a winless battle, but it at least be acknowledged.

[SmackDaddy 30]

quote:

Originally posted by WPMagic:

I understand that argument and it makes sense. A hardworking student should get the same opportunity of a quality education that I was fortunate to have. However, it would further leave the community behind. Before segregation black communities were full of educated, influential figures. They lived there because, well, they didn't have a choice. Following desegregation many of the community leaders left. Their absence accompanied with the already striking poverty and lack of education overall continue to drastically burden these communities. Vouchers further this flight of potential leaders. I'm not saying that they should stick it out and spend their life working on what is turning out to be a winless battle, but it at least be acknowledged.

 

What would you propose?

[Ned Ryerson 94]

quote:

Originally posted by JonBoy418:

quote:

Originally posted by SmackDaddy:

quote:

Originally posted by KillingInTheNameOf:

Talk to teachers in the public school system and ask them about the dynamics in their class rooms. They will overwhelming tell you that 3/4 unruly students in every class of 30 make educating the remaining students increasing difficult.

 

What's the natural reaction to this? Kick em out of class, suspend em, expell em, don't punish the 26/27 students interested in learning for the 3 or 4 bad apples, right?

 

Actually, it's being handled in the exact opposite way in schools these days.

 

After having our discussion about the education system the last few days, I called up a good friend of mine who is a teacher at a school in a low-income neighborhood. He reported one incident where there was one particular child who was disrupting class by consistently arriving late to class every period, every day. The faculty and principles met to determine a solution. The solution that the majority of instructors and most notably the principles and AP's decided upon was to allow this one student to leave class 3 minutes early every period. They figured that he was showing up late to class because he didn't have enough time between classes to loiter long enough in the halls with his friends.

 

This is the biggest, most impactful, liberal way of handling problems that has permiated not only our schools, but our businesses, our government, and our scoiety as a whole. The notion that bad behavior should be rewarded is azzinine. It only leads to more and more misbehavior.

 

All this talk about education, and I need to join in since it is a political passion for me. My wife taught 7th grade English in a bad area of Tallahassee and in a good area of Orlando. She has great views on education as well and is a great source on the politics of education. With her, I think I view things a little different than most people.

 

I agree with Smack that money can help lower level children in education by providing them computers, updated text books etc... but it's not going to solve the problem. It's a parent's responsibility to be involved in their child's education. Poor, rich, black, white, you show an indifferent parent, I'll show you a poor student.

 

Instead, a vast majority of parents treat school as a glorified day car. Drop them off, out of their hair. Then turn around and blame the teacher when their child is failing. In reality, a teacher spends approximately one hour per day, five days a week with that particular student. A parent spends over 100 hours per week with their child, 20 times as long. There is a greater oppurtunity for that student to learn work ethic skills, study skills and determination (all skills necassary to succeed in school) from that parent.

 

To start to address that concern (because it will most certainity will never be fixed) you need a special type of teacher. You need a teacher with specialized skills to reach the student and to sell the parent on effecitvely educating their child. In Orange County, a teacher is paid the same, regardless of working at Winter Park High vs. Jones High. I think thats a problem. The Jones job is much more demanding and requiring a specialized skill set. With that additional skill, there should be a wage differential. You want that 3-1 funding gap, put it in the teachers pocket (not all funding, mind you) and allow for the school's administration to be more selective in the hiring process.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

But to broadenize the education system, I think there's an inherent flaw in the "No Child Left Behind Act" I can't speak for other states, but here in Florida, that created the FCAT. It's a great system in theory, but put it in practice, it's degrading our educational system. It's provides better funding for higher graded schools, giving under performing schools an incentive to raise their grade.

 

The problem now is that administrators and superintendants now focus on the lower level student to increase his test grades, therefore raising the schools grade. With all that focus, the overacheiving student is being lost. If a child gets an A on the FCAT, then there really much emphasis put into further developing his education. Whereas an F student gets school sponsered tutoring sessions, he gets streamlined (which you are probably describing Smack), and gets a lot more teacher involvement.

 

For this reason above, I do not agree that each child's education should be equal. A child with a 140 IQ should not have the same education, teachers, ciriculum and tools as a child with a 90. Education should strive for each student to try and reach the next level his or her intelectual potential, but because of the FCAT and No Child Left Behind, all the focus is on the lower level student.

 

It's causing our low level students to become average students, our average students to stay average students and our great students to become good students. Frankly, we're creating an education system that perpetuates and strives for mediocrity.

 

I enjoyed your post.

 

Smack, can you agree that teachers should be paid more?

 

Obviously the thought is that if teachers salaries were more competitive with the rest of the job market we could attract and keep the good teachers that JonBoy was talking about.

 

What else do we do? I will be be the first to admit that money is wasted when it comes to education (edit: I didn't mean all money is wasted educating, just that some of the methods waste money!) , so how do we better spend it? Do we just not spend at all?

 

The main problem is, to put it bluntly, the uneducated breed the uneducated. They are a community and tax burden. How do we stop it?

[SmackDaddy 30]

quote:

Originally posted by WPMagic:

Smack, can you agree that teachers should be paid more?

 

That's a tough one.

 

The good teachers, absolutely. And perhaps raising the salary requirements for the position would bring about better candidates to perform the job.

 

As a retail shop owner, I constantly have teachers approaching me for part-time work during the Summer. I have employed 3 teachers now, and those three teachers have convinced e that I will never employ another one. I don't know if they are led to the teaching profession because they are lazy and irresponsible, or if their profession breeds that in them. But I can honestly say that I have never met a more worthless group of people to employ in my life.

 

A few observations from experiences employing teachers. They receive an enormous amount of time off from work. Holidays and sick days, not to mention Summer break, amounts to appx a 7 month work year. Therefore, they grow accustomed to not working almost as much as they do work. The system in place that allows them to call out sick for work, is nothing more than a voicemail system where a legitimate reason is not necessary. They pick up the phone, call, leave a message, and then a substitute is called in. No questions asked.

I actually had an employee think it was acceptable to text message me 30 minutes before she was scheduled to arrive at work, to tell me shouldn't be able to make it in. I also employed a teacher taking a 2 year break from education as a manager in one of my stores. She literally requested to get 4 weeks paid vacation. Huh? There were a half dozen times that we had the schedule posted for her, and she calld to let us know that her daddy was going to fly her home so she wouldn't be in to work for 2 weeks. Then once her daddy got a hold of super bowl tix, and she flat out left town knowing she was on the schedule to work. She called us from Arizona to let us know she was at the super bowl and wouldn't be back to work for 1 week. Needles to say, she was fired instantly (but that was about her 5th-6th indiscretion).

 

So, to answer your question. Sure pay the good ones more, or pay them more to attract better teachers. But I would have an enormous problem with raising the pay grade of the current degenerates instructing our youth.

[SmackDaddy 30]

A joke to lighten the mood:

 

If you had purchased $1000.00 of Nortel stock one year ago, it would now be worth $39.00.

 

With Enron, you would have $6.50 left of the original $1000.

 

With WorldCom, you would have less than $2.00 left.

 

If you had purchased $1000.00 of Delta Air Lines stock you would have $34.00 left.

 

If you had purchased United Airlines, you would have nothing left.

 

But, if you had purchased $1000.00 worth of beer one year ago, drank all the beer, then turned in the cans for recycling, you would have $214.00.

 

Based on the above, the best current investment advice is to drink heavily and recycle.

 

This is called the 401-Keg Plan.