2014 Draft Thread

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Still not really liking Payton, as much as I want to. I see the Rondo comparisons, but I also see a turnover machine with bad body language and a Rondo-comparable "jump shot." I'm not saying he's a terrible pick, just that he's a risk, especially when they had the opportunity for Exum and Smart. Maybe I'm undervaluing something about the kid, or maybe I'm overvaluing the other 2. I don't think I'm doing the latter. Exum and Smart went both right after Orlando's pick at 5 and 6. Both of those guys will be stars, in my opinion. I hope Gordon is, as well, so then I can just judge Payton on his draft spot, not who we missed out on at PG.

 

Bad body language? What?

[magicblue 315]

It's not about who's defending him, really. I know I made it seem that way, but my point was that you want the opportunity to create mismatches with him. You don't dictate who's guarding him, but with him offensively at the 4, you can dictate who they have on the floor by forcing them to go small if their four can't guard your 3 or your 4; you can dictate how they defend, moving their defenders around with quicker guys. My point was that at the 4, he gives your team an overall quickness advantage, not so much when he's at the 3.

 

So when he's playing the four and being guarded by a three, is he then a three or a four? More importantly, what does it matter? I guess he would technically be considered a 4 in a line-up of Payton, Dipo, Harris, Gordon, Vuc but if he's played by a SF because the opposing team feels that's a better match-up then their other forward would be playing Harris, who can also play PF. I guess what I'm saying is it's the player that creates the mismatch, not the position they're labeled.

 

 

 

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Bad body language? What?

 

Not Shabazz Muhammed "I'm a big fat baby" body language or anything. He just seems at times like he's somewhere else. Too relaxed.

[magicblue 315]

Bad body language? What?

 

Yeah, that's just....well, nevermind.

[magicblue 315]

Not Shabazz Muhammed "I'm a big fat baby" body language or anything. He just seems at times like he's somewhere else. Too relaxed.

 

Hmmm. How does he compare to Exum in that regard? Just curious.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

So when he's playing the four and being guarded by a three, is he then a three or a four? More importantly, what does it matter? I guess he would technically be considered a 4 in a line-up of Payton, Dipo, Harris, Gordon, Vuc but if he's played by a SF because the opposing team feels that's a better match-up then their other forward would be playing Harris, who can also play PF. I guess what I'm saying is it's the player that creates the mismatch, not the position they're labeled.

 

I see what you're saying. In truth, I was thinking about not playing him as a 3 with a more traditional sort of PF. He would be useless, say, on Chicago's roster playing beside Noah and Gibson/Boozer. On this team, you're right; the 3/4 is usually going to be pretty fluid, so the definition is unnecessary. I just don't want to see him out there at 3 with Vuc and Maxiel.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Hmmm. How does he compare to Exum in that regard? Just curious.

 

That's one of the reasons I liked Smart more than Exum, in truth. I haven't seen enough of Exum to know for sure that he has that killer instinct that Payton seems to be missing, but enough GM's and scouts seemed to think he did that I've been willing to assume it. Payton, I haven't heard anyone laud his aggression. Maybe I just haven't heard it. I saw the same passiveness in Rondo in college, but I assumed it was because he hated Tubby Smith (and who doesn't, really).

[Tom Ford 9]

I see what you're saying. In truth, I was thinking about not playing him as a 3 with a more traditional sort of PF. He would be useless, say, on Chicago's roster playing beside Noah and Gibson/Boozer. On this team, you're right; the 3/4 is usually going to be pretty fluid, so the definition is unnecessary. I just don't want to see him out there at 3 with Vuc and Maxiel.

 

 

You won't be seeing Maxiel with this draft class. He is there for vet leadership/ pick up a rookie when going through a slump. Maxiel was is in suit and tie for 3/4ths the year on the bench

[magicblue 315]

I see what you're saying. In truth, I was thinking about not playing him as a 3 with a more traditional sort of PF. He would be useless, say, on Chicago's roster playing beside Noah and Gibson/Boozer. On this team, you're right; the 3/4 is usually going to be pretty fluid, so the definition is unnecessary. I just don't want to see him out there at 3 with Vuc and Maxiel.

 

Yeah if we had a more traditional bruising type PF he would be forced to match up more with opposing 3's which he could totally do (I'm talking defensively). Again, we have no say in how the opposing team chooses to defend him. Eventually he will hopefully be able to overpower SF's on the offensive end as his post game develops. Then he can begin creating mismatches when they put a bigger but slower defender on him.

[magicblue 315]

That's one of the reasons I liked Smart more than Exum, in truth. I haven't seen enough of Exum to know for sure that he has that killer instinct that Payton seems to be missing, but enough GM's and scouts seemed to think he did that I've been willing to assume it. Payton, I haven't heard anyone laud his aggression. Maybe I just haven't heard it. I saw the same passiveness in Rondo in college, but I assumed it was because he hated Tubby Smith (and who doesn't, really).

 

Most people know far less about Payton simply because he played at Louisiana Lafayette. I personally saw Smart struggle mightily, and largely not get himself in the flow at all, against Kansas and saw several games where he just flat out could not make a shot. I have a hard time believing you've seen enough of Payton to make an informed opinion based on his body language. No offense or anything.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Yeah if we had a more traditional bruising type PF he would be forced to match up more with opposing 3's which he could totally do (I'm talking defensively). Again, we have no say in how the opposing team chooses to defend him. Eventually he will hopefully be able to overpower SF's on the offensive end as his post game develops. Then he can begin creating mismatches when they put a bigger but slower defender on him.

 

I would love to see him develop a post game. At that point, the only way for anyone, bigger or smaller, to guard him would be to foul him. God help them if he figures both those things out.

[jrjr1229 9]

I guess Rob's decision really comes down to who they can get out of the 2 picks as a whole...

 

Gordon/Payton combo beats any combo that Exum could pair up at 12.

 

at 12, you just can't find a quality big in this draft, but at 12 you can find a PG that can be a substitute of Exum.

 

Gordon is a rare type, because he can defend 5 positions. He and Exum are the gems in this draft but unfortunately you can only have one or the other.

 

Most elite teams play small anyway at the PF position... LeBron and Carmelo are examples... Spurs went small at Diaw at the finals as well... so to have a guy they can defend guys like Carmelo and LeBron while still being able to guard elite PGs on pick n rolls is very very special. He is probably the only guy in this draft that can do this.

 

To me he is a mixture of Ben Wallace and Shawn Marion. He will be the defensive player of the year many times in his career. No doubt about it. So I am very happy with the selection after understanding Rob's logic.

 

On top of that, he will be a better offensive player than those two when it is said and done.

 

One underrated aspect of his game is his passing... dude can pass man. which is what we need the most in this team.

 

As for Elfird Payton, I am not sold on him yet... no doubt he is very crafty... he kinda reminds me of skip to my lou with his shake and bake. He's got awesome defense, however the knock on him is his shooting and I believe everyone is aware of that... it's not a simple fix to me, he shoots flat (horizontally) and believe it or not, Gordon's shooting technique is probably better than his (more arc, shoots from bottom to up)...

 

I think the coaches will try to change his shooting stroke... and I hope they do... else his ceiling will be closer to Jeff Teaque and not Gary Payton....

 

Also I get the feeling he might be a bone head like Nick Young who's more concerned about stats than winning. I am being a bit unfair to him now but if he can show me that he's got Armstrong's heart and plays his poop out every night. He can easily be a fan favor. So that is to be determined and I hope he proves me wrong.