Henny has been fired!

[Justin Jaudon 221]

He was on Mike Bianchi's show. Mike specifically asked him after talking about Perry being fired and creating a culture and is that what Skiles was trying to do. Martins immediate response was and I quote, "Yeah look, Scott had no patience." He then immediately said how he met with Skiles numerous of times about it but Skiles time line was shorter than theirs. He finishes the Skiles talk with again saying, "He had no patience." Then Martins talked about developing players is such of an huge importance with young players. He went on to talk about the job Frank did in Indiana.

 

That's interesting. I'll have to listen to it when I have the time. From that, it sounds like maybe Martins is trying to save face a bit, like he did when he threw Hennigan under the bus. Skiles definitely wanted to win now. But that seemed to be the mandate of management as well, and not necessarily against developing as well. So when he says Skiles' timeline is shorter than theirs, that sounds like he's trying to throw Skiles under the bus as well. To be fair, Bianchi is putting him in a tough situation. If he says Skiles was just trying to create a culture, it begs the question if he shouldn't have just backed Skiles over Hennigan. If the answer is yes, I don't think that's a question that can be answered honestly, because it would reflect poorly on Vogel, which no one wants at this point. I don't know... I'll listen to it when I get the time. It's interesting, though.

[Magicman28 295]

That's interesting. I'll have to listen to it when I have the time. From that, it sounds like maybe Martins is trying to save face a bit, like he did when he threw Hennigan under the bus. Skiles definitely wanted to win now. But that seemed to be the mandate of management as well, and not necessarily against developing as well. So when he says Skiles' timeline is shorter than theirs, that sounds like he's trying to throw Skiles under the bus as well. To be fair, Bianchi is putting him in a tough situation. If he says Skiles was just trying to create a culture, it begs the question if he shouldn't have just backed Skiles over Hennigan. If the answer is yes, I don't think that's a question that can be answered honestly, because it would reflect poorly on Vogel, which no one wants at this point. I don't know... I'll listen to it when I get the time. It's interesting, though.

 

 

Think Martins is saying exactly what happened there. When you listen you can hear his tone change. I believe he truly wanted to see Skiles succeed here. They are or at least were friends. Alex usually spins everything. Not this. He was pretty direct and signing a multi year contract with a team in desperate need of development to express regret 2-3 months into the season after going 19-13 is evidence of this lack of patience.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Think Martins is saying exactly what happened there. When you listen you can hear his tone change. I believe he truly wanted to see Skiles succeed here. They are or at least were friends. Alex usually spins everything. Not this. He was pretty direct and signing a multi year contract with a team in desperate need of development to express regret 2-3 months into the season after going 19-13 is evidence of this lack of patience.

 

'Martins spins everything, but not this, because it agrees with what I've been saying'... nice.

 

Seriously, though, you could be right. I'll listen to it later. Truth is I don't doubt it, I just want to listen to see what I think for myself. I'm a very intellectually honest person, and you might have noticed I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. If it turns out I'm wrong about Skiles and he really wanted to trade Dipo for some washed up vet - which we apparently did anyway, but whatever - then I'll own that. I have no problem being wrong, I just have a deep distrust of speculation, especially when it's negative toward any one person. My view is that when things don't work out it's usually everyone's fault, not one guy.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

That's interesting. I'll have to listen to it when I have the time. From that, it sounds like maybe Martins is trying to save face a bit, like he did when he threw Hennigan under the bus. Skiles definitely wanted to win now. But that seemed to be the mandate of management as well, and not necessarily against developing as well. So when he says Skiles' timeline is shorter than theirs, that sounds like he's trying to throw Skiles under the bus as well. To be fair, Bianchi is putting him in a tough situation. If he says Skiles was just trying to create a culture, it begs the question if he shouldn't have just backed Skiles over Hennigan. If the answer is yes, I don't think that's a question that can be answered honestly, because it would reflect poorly on Vogel, which no one wants at this point. I don't know... I'll listen to it when I get the time. It's interesting, though.

 

I think this is probably correct. You take blame for small controllable things so that it will keep people off the less controllable bigger things.

 

I'm not sure we should care about anything Martins says because it's rarely going to be actually illuminating to his thoughts at the time. We need to only examine statements that show intent going forward.

[Magicman28 295]

'Martins spins everything, but not this, because it agrees with what I've been saying'... nice.

 

Seriously, though, you could be right. I'll listen to it later. Truth is I don't doubt it, I just want to listen to see what I think for myself. I'm a very intellectually honest person, and you might have noticed I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. If it turns out I'm wrong about Skiles and he really wanted to trade Dipo for some washed up vet - which we apparently did anyway, but whatever - then I'll own that. I have no problem being wrong, I just have a deep distrust of speculation, especially when it's negative toward any one person. My view is that when things don't work out it's usually everyone's fault, not one guy.

 

You seem to think I have some sort of personal investment other than a fan. I don't.

 

I'm very patient before coming to conclusions. It takes multiple upon multiple variables for me and all the variables point to Skiles not being the right fit. Were there variables that say that it could've work? Sure but Skiles has a history of impatience and there were variables that showed the possibilities it not working.

 

 

Of course the mandate was to win now. Rob just had a more analytical and long term approach. He wasn't going to jeopardize flexibility for short term results which may have been his downfall as honorable as it is.

 

Really liked to hear Rob's side but I suspect we won't.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

You seem to think I have some sort of personal investment other than a fan. I don't.

 

I'm very patient before coming to conclusions. It takes multiple upon multiple variables for me and all the variables point to Skiles not being the right fit. Were there variables that say that it could've work? Sure but Skiles has a history of impatience and there were variables that showed the possibilities it not working.

 

 

Of course the mandate was to win now. Rob just had a more analytical and long term approach. He wasn't going to jeopardize flexibility for short term results which may have been his downfall as honorable as it is.

 

Really liked to hear Rob's side but I suspect we won't.

 

I don't think you have a personal investment, just a personal opinion. That's fine. I have disagreed with that opinion, because I don't like throwing everything on Skiles and act like poor Hennigan was forced to ruin this team.

 

And Skiles doesn't have a history of impatience with developing a team. That's just not true at all; in fact, his previous stops show the opposite. He has a history of impatience with GMs like Hammond and Paxson who made stupid trades and throwing rosters together with no regard to fit. Think about it. Why did Skiles get ousted in Chicago? He had happily developed Deng, Hinrich and Ben Gordon into the core of a 50-win team. Then injuries killed the start of the season, so they had a slow start, and the impatient GM fired him. Why did he quit in Milwaukee? He had happily developed Jennings. He quit because the really stupid Monta Ellis trade gave that team no future.

 

And if Rob's analytical and long term approach gave us this dumpster fire of a season, he absolutely did jeopardize flexibility for short term results, by hog-tying us to Biyombo and DJ long term, and trading our best or second best asset - plus a top-15 pick in this draft - for a short term fix that failed miserably, forcing Vogel to derail AG's development by putting him at the 3, then paying $15 million to Green because apparently AG's development wasn't already screwed enough.

 

I'd like to hear Rob explain all this as well, but I doubt he has the balls to take any blame. He'd just swear to us all that this team was just a tweak away, if we'd just let him finish his master plan.

[Magicman28 295]

I don't think you have a personal investment, just a personal opinion. That's fine. I have disagreed with that opinion, because I don't like throwing everything on Skiles and act like poor Hennigan was forced to ruin this team.

 

And Skiles doesn't have a history of impatience with developing a team. That's just not true at all; in fact, his previous stops show the opposite. He has a history of impatience with GMs like Hammond and Paxson who made stupid trades and throwing rosters together with no regard to fit. Think about it. Why did Skiles get ousted in Chicago? He had happily developed Deng, Hinrich and Ben Gordon into the core of a 50-win team. Then injuries killed the start of the season, so they had a slow start, and the impatient GM fired him. Why did he quit in Milwaukee? He had happily developed Jennings. He quit because the really stupid Monta Ellis trade gave that team no future.

 

And if Rob's analytical and long term approach gave us this dumpster fire of a season, he absolutely did jeopardize flexibility for short term results, by hog-tying us to Biyombo and DJ long term, and trading our best or second best asset - plus a top-15 pick in this draft - for a short term fix that failed miserably, forcing Vogel to derail AG's development by putting him at the 3, then paying $15 million to Green because apparently AG's development wasn't already screwed enough.

 

I'd like to hear Rob explain all this as well, but I doubt he has the balls to take any blame. He'd just swear to us all that this team was just a tweak away, if we'd just let him finish his master plan.

 

 

Not putting it all Skiles. Martins should be getting the brunt of it.

 

Look, we're just not going to agree.

 

You talk about having balls yet here's a guy who no one was looking to hire, called his boy in management for a job, got the job and couldn't hack it not even a quarter way in season 1 and promptly quits in the off season. Hell one can view it as Skiles needed a paycheck and this was all a charade to get one. I won't say i believe that but that's how unethical he was.

 

 

You want to sit here and act like Rob had this plan he didn't disclose to Skiles before hand, fine. It's your prerogative. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

 

You want to sit here and act like Rob had this plan he didn't disclose to Skiles before hand, fine. It's your prerogative. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

I don't think Rob hid anything from Skiles. I think Martins told Rob the mandate was that progress needed to be made. I think Rob told Skiles exactly what he wanted to do, in terms of developing this wonderfully awesome talented group of future superstars. I think Rob sold Skiles on his future All-Defense PG and all the great young guys he was brilliant enough to draft. Skiles was stupid enough to believe that, as was apparently Vogel. Rob wasn't lying, by the way. He's just stupid. I think Rob honestly believes the team he put together should have worked. I think Skiles realized after working for Rob for a while that Rob is another terrible GM, and that he wasn't going to listen to him. Then, unwilling to try to make it work, he quit, not wanting to be a part of this **** show.

 

See. Everyone, EVEN ROB, shares the blame. Martins should have kept his hands off, leaving Rob to develop the team. If he felt later he needed to fire Rob, fine, but leave him alone to sink or swim. Rob should have not been stupid, and probably should have put together a team that fits together, mostly because guys don't get properly developed if they are constantly confused as to how to actually play the right position next to other guys who are playing the right position. With the assets we had a year and a half ago, anyone with a brain should have done a better job at putting together a team, even with the mandate to stop tanking. Skiles should have probably never taken the job, considering Rob apparently didn't want him - though I'm not sure Skiles really knew that. After that, he should have been more patient with Rob. I get that he didn't like Payton. He should have stuck it out another year, since apparently that was all it would take for Rob to get fired. Skiles should never have confided in Griffin. Skiles should have played Gordon more early in the season. Skiles should have played Nicholson less, always - that's right Nicholson, you can still eat a whole bag of dicks.

 

I don't blame Rob for the way Vaughn was fired, because it seems way more likely that was Martins' douchey ass, firing people the way he always has, in the worst possible way. I don't blame Rob for hiring a coach he couldn't get along with (Skiles), because it seems Martins pushed him into it. I don't blame Rob for the terrible culture of 'whatever' that Vaughn created, because that's not Rob's job. I don't blame Rob for Skiles benching Gordon early last season. I don't blame Rob for Vogel playing Green so much this season.

 

I don't blame Martins or Skiles for Rob's terrible roster moves, because unless Martins and Skiles pushed him to pay Frye, Biyombo, DJ, and Green, then Rob has plenty of evidence against him as a FA signer. I don't blame Martins or Skiles for Rob trading a good young asset for a player on the downside of his career at the same position as our best asset. Rob did enough stupid **** for me to be confident he is a bad GM.

 

The difference between our arguments isn't that I think Rob is some evil guy who ruined the team despite the valiant efforts of Martins and Skiles; it's that I think Rob is an idiot when it comes to building a coherent basketball team, which is what his job was. I don't think evil Martins and Skiles forced poor Rob to ruin the team. You can believe that if you want, but I'm going to put blame in the most sensible places.

[Magicman28 295]

I don't think Rob hid anything from Skiles. I think Martins told Rob the mandate was that progress needed to be made. I think Rob told Skiles exactly what he wanted to do, in terms of developing this wonderfully awesome talented group of future superstars. I think Rob sold Skiles on his future All-Defense PG and all the great young guys he was brilliant enough to draft. Skiles was stupid enough to believe that, as was apparently Vogel. Rob wasn't lying, by the way. He's just stupid. I think Rob honestly believes the team he put together should have worked. I think Skiles realized after working for Rob for a while that Rob is another terrible GM, and that he wasn't going to listen to him. Then, unwilling to try to make it work, he quit, not wanting to be a part of this **** show.

 

See. Everyone, EVEN ROB, shares the blame. Martins should have kept his hands off, leaving Rob to develop the team. If he felt later he needed to fire Rob, fine, but leave him alone to sink or swim. Rob should have not been stupid, and probably should have put together a team that fits together, mostly because guys don't get properly developed if they are constantly confused as to how to actually play the right position next to other guys who are playing the right position. With the assets we had a year and a half ago, anyone with a brain should have done a better job at putting together a team, even with the mandate to stop tanking. Skiles should have probably never taken the job, considering Rob apparently didn't want him - though I'm not sure Skiles really knew that. After that, he should have been more patient with Rob. I get that he didn't like Payton. He should have stuck it out another year, since apparently that was all it would take for Rob to get fired. Skiles should never have confided in Griffin. Skiles should have played Gordon more early in the season. Skiles should have played Nicholson less, always - that's right Nicholson, you can still eat a whole bag of dicks.

 

I don't blame Rob for the way Vaughn was fired, because it seems way more likely that was Martins' douchey ass, firing people the way he always has, in the worst possible way. I don't blame Rob for hiring a coach he couldn't get along with (Skiles), because it seems Martins pushed him into it. I don't blame Rob for the terrible culture of 'whatever' that Vaughn created, because that's not Rob's job. I don't blame Rob for Skiles benching Gordon early last season. I don't blame Rob for Vogel playing Green so much this season.

 

I don't blame Martins or Skiles for Rob's terrible roster moves, because unless Martins and Skiles pushed him to pay Frye, Biyombo, DJ, and Green, then Rob has plenty of evidence against him as a FA signer. I don't blame Martins or Skiles for Rob trading a good young asset for a player on the downside of his career at the same position as our best asset. Rob did enough stupid **** for me to be confident he is a bad GM.

 

The difference between our arguments isn't that I think Rob is some evil guy who ruined the team despite the valiant efforts of Martins and Skiles; it's that I think Rob is an idiot when it comes to building a coherent basketball team, which is what his job was. I don't think evil Martins and Skiles forced poor Rob to ruin the team. You can believe that if you want, but I'm going to put blame in the most sensible places.

 

 

Well, I agree with most of this.

 

I don't think Rob was an idiot. I think he might've been a little too green? Inexperienced? He's an intelligent guy.

 

I was just listening to the radio and Bianchi, who I take with a grain of salt, went more in depth about Skiles. He said when referring to Martins comments about culture, was how lackadaisical it was under Rib and Perry. It sorta had this lazy vibe to it and even the in the locker room and this is what irked Skiles. The meetings Skiles and Alex had were Alex trying to tell Skiles "look, we're working on fixing that. Just be patient." They also speculated that Alex was trying to convince Skiles that he may even outlast Rob eventually.

 

When Alex was referring to Skiles not having any patience, it was more of lack of patience with fixing the lackadaisical culture that might've carried over from the JV era.

 

This isn't from Alex himself. This is all from Bianchi.

 

I guess Bianchi is going to have an article on Skiles in the sentinel tomorrow. It will be his conclusion.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Well, I agree with most of this.

 

I don't think Rob was an idiot. I think he might've been a little too green? Inexperienced? He's an intelligent guy.

 

I was just listening to the radio and Bianchi, who I take with a grain of salt, went more in depth about Skiles. He said when referring to Martins comments about culture, was how lackadaisical it was under Rib and Perry. It sorta had this lazy vibe to it and even the in the locker room and this is what irked Skiles. The meetings Skiles and Alex had were Alex trying to tell Skiles "look, we're working on fixing that. Just be patient." They also speculated that Alex was trying to convince Skiles that he may even outlast Rob eventually.

 

When Alex was referring to Skiles not having any patience, it was more of lack of patience with fixing the lackadaisical culture that might've carried over from the JV era.

 

This isn't from Alex himself. This is all from Bianchi.

 

I guess Bianchi is going to have an article on Skiles in the sentinel tomorrow. It will be his conclusion.

 

Very interesting. I'll have to check that out.

[HeHateMe 697]

So much conjecture on one thread.

[Magicman28 295]

So much conjecture on one thread.

 

 

Tis the season...

 

And don't we all do that anyways for the most part?