The real question: Does Martins need to go too?

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I hear you. I do. But understand, I'm not saying I love Martins. I hate the way he fires people, for one. as for those articles:

 

JVG and SVG of course hate him. Of course he's not a good basketball mind. It's a good thing the basketball part of the job can be left up to the GM.

 

The funny thing about the orlandomagicdaily article is that it was written right after Skiles' departure, with the assumption still out there that Hennigan was making the right decisions. I disagree with the article only in that, had Martins backed Skiles in the feud with Hennigan, we likely would have made the playoffs this year and everyone would be talking about what a good decision it was. It sounds like, from that article, with the benefit of nearly a year watching Hennigan and Vogel turn this team into a joke, that the only thing Martins did wrong in terms of Skiles was not back him enough.

 

I disagree. I don't think it's right to speculate that skiles led moves would have built a better team.

[Magicman28 295]

I hear you. I do. But understand, I'm not saying I love Martins. I hate the way he fires people, for one. as for those articles:

 

JVG and SVG of course hate him. Of course he's not a good basketball mind. It's a good thing the basketball part of the job can be left up to the GM.

 

The funny thing about the orlandomagicdaily article is that it was written right after Skiles' departure, with the assumption still out there that Hennigan was making the right decisions. I disagree with the article only in that, had Martins backed Skiles in the feud with Hennigan, we likely would have made the playoffs this year and everyone would be talking about what a good decision it was. It sounds like, from that article, with the benefit of nearly a year watching Hennigan and Vogel turn this team into a joke, that the only thing Martins did wrong in terms of Skiles was not back him enough.

 

Skiles was the most unprofessional coach I've seen in a long time.

How in the hell do you back a guy who wanted an young asset traded for two familiar vets who provided nothing to better the team? How do you back someone who signed up KNOWING this team needed developing but not in even half way into the development season he wants to quit and expresses it to his assistants? Dude was literally the root cause of drama with that ****. Even Frank said they were way more behind then he thought. Skiles didn't give two ****s about developing.

 

Adrian Griffin literally went and told management because even he was like wtf?! Then in the end, even despite trading away assets for your boys who sucked, you still quit anyways. ***** that. Backing him is signing your own pink slip. That's a fact. Go ask his assistants who were thrown under the bus by Skiles quitting.

 

I bet he never coaches in the pros again.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Skiles was the most unprofessional coach I've seen in a long time.

How in the hell do you back a guy who wanted an young asset traded for two familiar vets who provided nothing to better the team? How do you back someone who signed up KNOWING this team needed developing but not in even half way into the development season he wants to quit and expresses it to his assistants? Dude was literally the root cause of drama with that ****. Even Frank said they were way more behind then he thought. Skiles didn't give two ****s about developing.

 

Adrian Griffin literally went and told management because even he was like wtf?! Then in the end, even despite trading away assets for your boys who sucked, you still quit anyways. ***** that. Backing him is signing your own pink slip. That's a fact. Go ask his assistants who were thrown under the bus by Skiles quitting.

 

I bet he never coaches in the pros again.

 

You're still assuming Skiles asked for Jennings and Ilyasova. I've seen nothing to indicate that beyond speculation that is made sketchy by Skiles' reaction to the trade at the time. I'm not sure how unprofessional he was. That he wanted to quit sucks, but I'm not sure regret is unprofessional, especially when you see yourself in a situation where your boss doesn't listen to you. It seems more likely he thought a young GM would listen to a veteran coach with upper management backing, and was disappointed when that wasn't the case.

[Magicman28 295]

You're still assuming Skiles asked for Jennings and Ilyasova. I've seen nothing to indicate that beyond speculation that is made sketchy by Skiles' reaction to the trade at the time. I'm not sure how unprofessional he was. That he wanted to quit sucks, but I'm not sure regret is unprofessional, especially when you see yourself in a situation where your boss doesn't listen to you. It seems more likely he thought a young GM would listen to a veteran coach with upper management backing, and was disappointed when that wasn't the case.

 

 

Come on man. You really think Rob solely wanted Jennings and Iiyasova for their awesome talent? Two guys who played well in the past under Skiles and actually liked Skiles and just so happens he traded away Harris for those two? Same Harris who Skiles had a sketchy past with? Dude seriously. You said you had it all covered common sense being one of them. If you buy that, I beg to differ.

 

You're not sure threatening to quit to your staff a quarter way through a developing season is unprofessional?!

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Come on man. You really think Rob solely wanted Jennings and Iiyasova for their awesome talent? Two guys who played well in the past under Skiles and actually liked Skiles and just so happens he traded away Harris for those two? Same Harris who Skiles had a sketchy past with? Dude seriously. You said you had it all covered common sense being one of them. If you buy that, I beg to differ.

 

You're not sure threatening to quit to your staff a quarter way through a developing season is unprofessional?!

 

Okay, let me clarify. I think:

 

Skiles wanted to move on from Payton. Hennigan didn't. Skiles expressed to a co-worker that he was questioning his decision to get back into coaching, because he was running into the same **** he had in other situations, management not listening to him. Hearing this, Hennigan and Martins meet with Skiles and an agreement is made to get Skiles someone who can challenge Payton for the job.

 

Nothing horribly unprofessional so far, just usual life ****, people disagreeing and coming together to make it work. Knowing he needs to get rid of Harris anyway, willing to do it as a salary dump move, Hennigan goes and gets two guys who played for Skiles before - maybe Skiles suggested them, maybe not; that's beside the point, really. The trade was ****, but only because Hennigan couldn't get a pick out of Detroit.

 

Funny enough, the trade actually does improve the team, as getting a competent back-up PG and someone who could sub in for Payton when he went off the rails, plus getting a solid outside threat as a stretch PF behind Gordon, were exactly good enough to get the team to a respectable level. The team still wasn't great, because they needed a starting caliber PG and neither Payton nor Jennings were that; but they made a nice run, and were clearly a better team trending upward, at the end of the season. So Skiles, it seems, was right this time.

 

So going into the off-season, Skiles wants to finish the job, go after a real upgrade at the PG position. This is what basically everyone was reporting was still the major sticking point. Hennigan says no, again. Skiles isn't backed this time by Martins, is essentially told to get in line behind Hennigan. Nothing wrong yet. Power struggles happen, and so far nothing has been unprofessional as far as I can see. Maybe Skiles heard about the off-season plan to unload the team's best player for a player at Gordon's position, then spend huge money on a decent backup, maybe something else in Hennigan's plan sucked. I don't know, because Skiles decided he'd rather quit than work for someone who wouldn't listen to him. That sucks, but I'm not sure it's unprofessional, especially considering the ****-show this team became after backing Hennigan over Scott Skiles.

 

To be clear, I don't KNOW that listening to Skiles would have been better. But I have reason to believe it could have been, and I know that listening to Hennigan gave us this crap. "Skiles' guys" Jennings and Ilyasova did improve the team last year, just not enough to make the playoffs yet. "Hennigan's guys" Ibaka, Biyombo, Green, and Augustin, have each, in their own way, been a resounding failure.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

I disagree. I don't think it's right to speculate that skiles led moves would have built a better team.

 

I don't know why that's not right. You may disagree that it's certain, but it's certainly worth discussing. The only Skiles-led move before improved the team, so...

[hootie249 293]

Okay, let me clarify. I think:

 

Skiles wanted to move on from Payton. Hennigan didn't. Skiles expressed to a co-worker that he was questioning his decision to get back into coaching, because he was running into the same **** he had in other situations, management not listening to him. Hearing this, Hennigan and Martins meet with Skiles and an agreement is made to get Skiles someone who can challenge Payton for the job.

 

Nothing horribly unprofessional so far, just usual life ****, people disagreeing and coming together to make it work. Knowing he needs to get rid of Harris anyway, willing to do it as a salary dump move, Hennigan goes and gets two guys who played for Skiles before - maybe Skiles suggested them, maybe not; that's beside the point, really. The trade was ****, but only because Hennigan couldn't get a pick out of Detroit.

 

Funny enough, the trade actually does improve the team, as getting a competent back-up PG and someone who could sub in for Payton when he went off the rails, plus getting a solid outside threat as a stretch PF behind Gordon, were exactly good enough to get the team to a respectable level. The team still wasn't great, because they needed a starting caliber PG and neither Payton nor Jennings were that; but they made a nice run, and were clearly a better team trending upward, at the end of the season. So Skiles, it seems, was right this time.

 

So going into the off-season, Skiles wants to finish the job, go after a real upgrade at the PG position. This is what basically everyone was reporting was still the major sticking point. Hennigan says no, again. Skiles isn't backed this time by Martins, is essentially told to get in line behind Hennigan. Nothing wrong yet. Power struggles happen, and so far nothing has been unprofessional as far as I can see. Maybe Skiles heard about the off-season plan to unload the team's best player for a player at Gordon's position, then spend huge money on a decent backup, maybe something else in Hennigan's plan sucked. I don't know, because Skiles decided he'd rather quit than work for someone who wouldn't listen to him. That sucks, but I'm not sure it's unprofessional, especially considering the ****-show this team became after backing Hennigan over Scott Skiles.

 

To be clear, I don't KNOW that listening to Skiles would have been better. But I have reason to believe it could have been, and I know that listening to Hennigan gave us this crap. "Skiles' guys" Jennings and Ilyasova did improve the team last year, just not enough to make the playoffs yet. "Hennigan's guys" Ibaka, Biyombo, Green, and Augustin, have each, in their own way, been a resounding failure.

 

 

Yeah this is what i believe. Love the way you present this, it has the feel of what i think happened. I wish Hennigan had signed a good point guard right at the beginning. Overpay somebody decent on a 4 year contract. Yeah they would have known the playoffs were out of the question but here is 55 million for 4 years.I am not going look to see who was a free agent 4 years ago, but we really needed a journeyman to bridge the gap. Even at the cost of a few more wins each year.

[Magicman28 295]

Okay, let me clarify. I think:

 

Skiles wanted to move on from Payton. Hennigan didn't. Skiles expressed to a co-worker that he was questioning his decision to get back into coaching, because he was running into the same **** he had in other situations, management not listening to him. Hearing this, Hennigan and Martins meet with Skiles and an agreement is made to get Skiles someone who can challenge Payton for the job.

 

Nothing horribly unprofessional so far, just usual life ****, people disagreeing and coming together to make it work. Knowing he needs to get rid of Harris anyway, willing to do it as a salary dump move, Hennigan goes and gets two guys who played for Skiles before - maybe Skiles suggested them, maybe not; that's beside the point, really. The trade was ****, but only because Hennigan couldn't get a pick out of Detroit.

 

Funny enough, the trade actually does improve the team, as getting a competent back-up PG and someone who could sub in for Payton when he went off the rails, plus getting a solid outside threat as a stretch PF behind Gordon, were exactly good enough to get the team to a respectable level. The team still wasn't great, because they needed a starting caliber PG and neither Payton nor Jennings were that; but they made a nice run, and were clearly a better team trending upward, at the end of the season. So Skiles, it seems, was right this time.

 

So going into the off-season, Skiles wants to finish the job, go after a real upgrade at the PG position. This is what basically everyone was reporting was still the major sticking point. Hennigan says no, again. Skiles isn't backed this time by Martins, is essentially told to get in line behind Hennigan. Nothing wrong yet. Power struggles happen, and so far nothing has been unprofessional as far as I can see. Maybe Skiles heard about the off-season plan to unload the team's best player for a player at Gordon's position, then spend huge money on a decent backup, maybe something else in Hennigan's plan sucked. I don't know, because Skiles decided he'd rather quit than work for someone who wouldn't listen to him. That sucks, but I'm not sure it's unprofessional, especially considering the ****-show this team became after backing Hennigan over Scott Skiles.

 

To be clear, I don't KNOW that listening to Skiles would have been better. But I have reason to believe it could have been, and I know that listening to Hennigan gave us this crap. "Skiles' guys" Jennings and Ilyasova did improve the team last year, just not enough to make the playoffs yet. "Hennigan's guys" Ibaka, Biyombo, Green, and Augustin, have each, in their own way, been a resounding failure.

 

 

Thought about that myself but the missing variable there is Rob would not of kept his desire to stay with EP from Skiles. If Rob had every intention to keep and develop EP for the entire year which imo makes sense, he would've disclosed that to Skiles from the get go. If a deal is there maybe but no way were we in a position to win on a deal that involved EP. Now, this off season maybe because he's shown some progression since then. EP is playing some of the best ball of his career.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Okay, let me clarify. I think:

 

Skiles wanted to move on from Payton. Hennigan didn't. Skiles expressed to a co-worker that he was questioning his decision to get back into coaching, because he was running into the same **** he had in other situations, management not listening to him. Hearing this, Hennigan and Martins meet with Skiles and an agreement is made to get Skiles someone who can challenge Payton for the job.

 

Nothing horribly unprofessional so far, just usual life ****, people disagreeing and coming together to make it work. Knowing he needs to get rid of Harris anyway, willing to do it as a salary dump move, Hennigan goes and gets two guys who played for Skiles before - maybe Skiles suggested them, maybe not; that's beside the point, really. The trade was ****, but only because Hennigan couldn't get a pick out of Detroit.

 

Funny enough, the trade actually does improve the team, as getting a competent back-up PG and someone who could sub in for Payton when he went off the rails, plus getting a solid outside threat as a stretch PF behind Gordon, were exactly good enough to get the team to a respectable level. The team still wasn't great, because they needed a starting caliber PG and neither Payton nor Jennings were that; but they made a nice run, and were clearly a better team trending upward, at the end of the season. So Skiles, it seems, was right this time.

 

So going into the off-season, Skiles wants to finish the job, go after a real upgrade at the PG position. This is what basically everyone was reporting was still the major sticking point. Hennigan says no, again. Skiles isn't backed this time by Martins, is essentially told to get in line behind Hennigan. Nothing wrong yet. Power struggles happen, and so far nothing has been unprofessional as far as I can see. Maybe Skiles heard about the off-season plan to unload the team's best player for a player at Gordon's position, then spend huge money on a decent backup, maybe something else in Hennigan's plan sucked. I don't know, because Skiles decided he'd rather quit than work for someone who wouldn't listen to him. That sucks, but I'm not sure it's unprofessional, especially considering the ****-show this team became after backing Hennigan over Scott Skiles.

 

To be clear, I don't KNOW that listening to Skiles would have been better. But I have reason to believe it could have been, and I know that listening to Hennigan gave us this crap. "Skiles' guys" Jennings and Ilyasova did improve the team last year, just not enough to make the playoffs yet. "Hennigan's guys" Ibaka, Biyombo, Green, and Augustin, have each, in their own way, been a resounding failure.

 

I mean you got it right but the Tobias trade. If Hennigan tells skiles "ok we'll go get two of your former players to help" and he goes to Detroit and asks them for a first round pick and they say no he can't say "ok, we'll play hard ball then" because it alienates the coach you just promised to compromise with. We didn't even shop harris around. We made an offer, they countered, we accepted.

 

and I don't know if you want to go on the Skiles guys improved the team philosophy. Ilyasova was the worst player on the team last year. Jennings was good only based on the fact that he wasn't Shabazz. http://on.nba.com/2pmz7HJ we still went 10-15 when Jennings played which was a lower winning percentage .400 than how we did in games that Jennings didn't play .439

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I don't know why that's not right. You may disagree that it's certain, but it's certainly worth discussing. The only Skiles-led move before improved the team, so...

 

no, no they didn't.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Thought about that myself but the missing variable there is Rob would not of kept his desire to stay with EP from Skiles. If Rob had every intention to keep and develop EP for the entire year which imo makes sense, he would've disclosed that to Skiles from the get go.

 

That's what's funny. Skiles initially talked Payton up more than almost anyone, when he got the job. He genuinely seemed excited about coaching a back-court with him and Oladipo because of their "defensive potential". But after getting to know the kid, and his game, Skiles clearly changed his mind. This backs up why Skiles would take the job, then later regret it, especially if after a re-evaluation of Payton, Hennigan basically holds the line as keeps viewing him as the PG of the future. Even Vogel has said the players were not as far along as he thought. Maybe Hennigan has a habit of overselling the players on the team to prospective coaches.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

no, no they didn't.

 

I understand the winning % wasn't better. But consider more than just that. Orlando was basically in a free-fall before the trade. The win column was padded by a bunch of early season wins against terrible teams, but once they started having to play real teams, they fell apart. Then they made the trade, and things were starting to get better, before an injury to Payton in March derailed a pretty solid turn-around, with some quality wins over Dallas and Chicago, resulting in costly losses like the Lakers game in which Payton went down. After that hiccup, the momentum started to build back up at the end of the season, with wins against playoff teams like Indiana, Memphis, and Miami, plus a good win against the Bulls, a team fighting for a playoff spot. That trade clearly made this a better team, because they didn't need Harris, and having good backups at PG and PF helped. That's not hard to see, man.