2016-2017 Season Discussion Thread

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Payton is 8 months older than Conley in their respective years, meaningless difference. I personally don't see Payton's lack of a 'consistent effort' nearly as much as a few vocal members do here, I think he fits right in with the psyche of the team most of the time. Further, if he does become disengaged for a time, that means absolutely nothing in how he will be as a player down the line nor does it have any bearing on whether he is a starter or not. Watch any of the best players and they each get into funks/look disengaged. It's kind of a poor excuse when you are looking for a reason to dog on a guy when there is little tangible evidence to dog on him with. Last thing about this whole age/consistency/effort stuff, at PG specifically, you have a lot to learn at 22-maybe not QUITE as much as at 20, but still pretty similar. PG's don't peak until their mid-late 20's assuming the typical pro-ball trajectory.

 

I don't know what stats you're looking at or what you remember from Conley in his early years, but Payton is by far the better player compared to Conley in their respective third seasons-it's not even close. Literally, the only thing Conley did better was shoot 3's. We get it, Payton can't shoot threes. If he could, he might be an all star already. Payton is doing what he's doing in nearly 5mpg less than what Conley did too. You're opinion is fine, I'm good with it, your rationale is what doesn't fly.

 

You're still missing the point. Payton is not a backup because he isn't good. He is good, sometimes. He is a bad starter because he's not able to play within an offense (mostly because he can't shoot), so he's only effective when the ball is in his hands. He's a bad starter because he doesn't play defense with consistent effort (I'm not going to ignore poor effort, however much you seem to think I should). Those things are not things that are likely to change drastically enough for him to become a good starter, because historically bad shooters rarely become good shooters, and inconsistent effort is not something that suddenly changes. That's been my rationale for a year, and I think it is flying just fine, considering he is doing exactly what I said he would do as a backup.

[Odin 137]

Didn't say third year Conley was better. I specifically said they were very similar except that Conley could shoot and was more consistent. What I said, and what people seem to forget, is that 3rd year Conley was nearly a year younger than Elfrid Payton. I said Conley was considerably better the season he turned 23. I mentioned both seasons specifically because their ages line up oddly.

 

That feels very contrived then. It isn't like they are multiple years apart in age at year 3.

[fan for too long 2 535]

Tony Parker says hello.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

That feels very contrived then. It isn't like they are multiple years apart in age at year 3.

 

No. I didn't say they were. Less than a year. That doesn't make my point contrived. I didn't bring Conley up. He was a late bloomer. His year 3 was very similar to Payton's, except that the things he did well allowed him to play off-ball, which Payton can't do. My entire point is that Payton and Conley are incomparable because they are and have always been very different players. The only comparison is that Conley was also not very good in year 3.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Tony Parker says hello.

 

Parker always could shoot, just didn't have 3-point range until later in his career. He had a decent mid range shot, and he shot well from the FT line. Shooting is not just 3s. Payton is not just bad at shooting 3s. He also can't shoot from 12 feet out. His shot is broken. Bad comparison.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I don't think there's a way to win this argument until enough time passes. Its hard to judge a player based on consistency when time increases consistency. so we wont know who he is until enough time passes. but by then it might be too late and we've sat here for a while going nowhere. or we are sitting here happy we didn't make a rash decision in year 3 of a player's career.

 

its frustrating.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Parker always could shoot, just didn't have 3-point range until later in his career. He had a decent mid range shot, and he shot well from the FT line. Shooting is not just 3s. Payton is not just bad at shooting 3s. He also can't shoot from 12 feet out. His shot is broken. Bad comparison.

 

payton's issues don't come from shooting. we're fine if payton's only problem is shooting poorly.

 

Payton's issues come from shooting, problems consistently getting into the lane, problems consistently playing defense, losing focus in man to man defense, having trouble fighting through screens periodically, and maybe a meek personality having an impact on the court.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

payton's issues don't come from shooting. we're fine if payton's only problem is shooting poorly.

 

Payton's issues come from shooting, problems consistently getting into the lane, problems consistently playing defense, losing focus in man to man defense, having trouble fighting through screens periodically, and maybe a meek personality having an impact on the court.

 

Exactly what I've been saying for a year. His shooting limits him, but no more than all those other things.

[Magicman28 295]

"I just made the game easier on myself."

 

Now, he needs Orlando to do the same.

 

The roster requires restructuring to put him back at his best position: He's a power forward by trade, and the Magic should treat him as such. Assuming he moves back to his natural post at some point, a lot of what he's struggling to learn now might be discarded later on.

 

He's in the bottom 50th percentile of finishers as an isolation player (0.79 points per possession, 41.4 percentile) and pick-and-roll ball-handler (0.38, 4.0). His field-goal percentage plummets from 47.9 to 34.2 when he possesses the ball for at least two seconds.

 

He doesn't look capable of consistently creating his own shot, a weakness scouts noticed during his one-and-done year at Arizona, as Derek Bodner of DraftExpress noted.

 

That doesn't have to be detrimental. His speed and incredible leaping ability make him an asset in transition and on cuts to the basket. His first step is quick enough to beat defenders on straight-line drives, and his developing stroke could open some catch-and-shoot options.

 

Unleash Gordon as a small-ball big, and he instantly becomes a tough cover. A mismatch instead of mismatched.

 

His athletic advantage grows even more pronounced, and concerns with his shooting and dribble moves lessen. He routinely beats opponents down the floor, generating easy looks or forcing mismatches. He's still an aerial acrobat in transition and on the offensive glass, and he can seamlessly shift through defensive assignments on pick-and-rolls.

 

None of this is news to Vogel, whose hands are tied until the front office rights its wrongs. Clear the frontcourt clutter, and Gordon's stock could surge again.

 

Because as murky as his present has become, his future means more to the Magic than anyone's. He is the roster's highest-drafted player and the rotation's youngest member. He has, at worst, a puncher's chance at stardom but only if Orlando positions him for success.

 

"We all believe in Aaron," Magic point guard Elfrid Payton said. "He's so versatile on both sides of the court. We know he's going to be a big asset to this team."Yeah

[HardCutting Franz 51]

Chad Ford just said that this draft is the best since the 2003 draft . Can we just tank , I love me some Ball or Smith! :sadcrab:/>

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Chad Ford just said that this draft is the best since the 2003 draft . Can we just tank , I love me some Ball or Smith! :sadcrab:/>/>

 

Chad Ford is being hyperbolic. I think it's going to be similar to 2008.

 

Rose

then you have a couple guys with high upside that just failed in Mayo and Beas (which happens)

Westbrook

love

gallo

eric Gordon

 

 

10-20 you get more good picks (for the spot) in the lopez twins, hibbert, spieghts, and bayless

 

 

then 20-30 you have a bunch of sleepers in Anderson, Courtney lee, Ibaka, Batum, George hill, Darrell Arthur.

 

then you have a deep second round with Deandre Jordan, Chalmers, Asik, mbah a moute, and Dragic.

 

2010 was the best class since 2003

 

then 2014 was the best class since 2003

 

now 2017 was the best class since 2003

[Mauro Pedrosa 1,033]

Probably been posted already but Lowe and Windhorst spend a nice chunk of time talking about us

 

http://www.espn.com/espnradio/play?id=18334195