2016 Off-Season Thread

[Mack1085 57]

I'm with you! I think we are a 3-4 seed team this season.

 

I think the East has a ton of parity, but I think our depth will be an asset as there are teams with strong staring 5 (on paper) but lacking much depth.

[Catalina Maria 64]

I think the East has a ton of parity, but I think our depth will be an asset as there are teams with strong staring 5 (on paper) but lacking much depth.

 

Yeah, I see our team as essentially two starting lineups IMHO. People hate on Payton so much have him come off the bench and pair him up with Meeks, Hezonja, and Vuc. Yeah Payton AND Vuc can come off the bench with all our depth!

[Catalina Maria 64]

Yeah, I see our team as essentially two starting lineups IMHO. People hate on Payton so much have him come off the bench and pair him up with Meeks, Hezonja, and Vuc. Yeah Payton AND Vuc can come off the bench with all our depth!

 

Biyombo

Ibaka

Gordon

Fournier

Augustin

 

Vuc

Green

Hezonja

Meeks

Payton

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Enjoy your half-empty glass. But please stop pedaling false ideas like not enough minutes for Gordon's development. If you just don't believe he can be a 3 in the NBA, then I get your concern. I wouldn't agree with the belief, but I'd understand why you'd be concerned if you thought it. But there are plenty of minutes for AG. And no one for the organization has said anything about Vuc getting sub-20/night. And Ibaka on average played less than 7games worth of minutes at center per season. Can you just be happy with a potential all-star and all-defensive power forward playing power forward?

 

Mario is a backup 2/3 this season. Which is precisely what he should be based on his performance thus far. He will get minutes as a versatile wing who can spread the floor (not a redundant skill). Evan is the only other wing besides Mario who can play the 3 and shoot the 3, but since he's the starting 2...plenty of time for Mario to fill that role.

 

Meeks and Green are one year deals. They are injury insurance and talented veterans. They will get the minutes they get and you need not freak out over how many minutes they got previously. Unless your glass is half empty. Then you should wish for useless scrubs who contribute nothing. Ignore the fact that at the end of the season our books look the same if you get 1 year scrubs vs. 1 year skilled vets.

 

So you won't see weird lineups. Instead you'll see winning lineups. If the lineups aren't winning, I imagine we'll see changes. Why? Because despite your complaint at our lack of positional flexibility, we have tons of positional flexibility!!! (Is it half full yet?) Thank goodness we have the depth to adapt if we aren't winning with the rotation we start the season with.

 

1. it's not half empty. I'm not being negative. In fact one of my biggest criticisms on here has been optimism. It's not negative to prefer a smaller rotation.

 

2. if there's 48 minutes per night at the center position and you give 4-6 minutes per night to Ibaka that leaves 42-44 minutes left for biyombo and vucevic to split. I'd imagine 50% of the time you're going to see Vucevic get less than 20 minutes.

 

3. If I hold the opinions of Zach Lowe, Bill Simmons, Tom Ziller, Matt Moore (and other bloggers both magic centric and national) in various levels of esteem and they not only say "What are the magic doing?" and they speak to other GM's who say "what are the magic doing?" it makes sense to examine that. Every single writer has some version of "I like their moves I just don't see how they all fit" in their stories. It's intellectually dishonest to run here and be excited when Zach Lowe loves something and completely dismiss his opinion when he says something unfavorable.

 

 

If I'm building a team my primary lineup is going to be Payton-Fournier-Green-Gordon-Ibaka with Hezonja replacing green when he's capable. I'm using Augustin, Meeks, and Biyombo along with Hezonja/Green off the bench. I'm filling the gaps with a 3 and D sg/sf type who might never play or might get thrown at opposing wings when our guys get in foul trouble, a Veteran pg or a developmental guy, a Kendrick Perkins type guy who will never play except in the rare times that we face a Dwight Howard/Andre Drummond type guy that Biyombo might have trouble with, and two Zimmerman types i.e. guys who you let hang around because they might be something in 2-3 years.

 

Right now we have an extra Vucevic that's going to be a minute strain.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Yeah, I see our team as essentially two starting lineups IMHO. People hate on Payton so much have him come off the bench and pair him up with Meeks, Hezonja, and Vuc. Yeah Payton AND Vuc can come off the bench with all our depth!

 

Augustin would be a bottom 5 starting point guard.

[Mack1085 57]

1. it's not half empty. I'm not being negative. In fact one of my biggest criticisms on here has been optimism. It's not negative to prefer a smaller rotation.

 

2. if there's 48 minutes per night at the center position and you give 4-6 minutes per night to Ibaka that leaves 42-44 minutes left for biyombo and vucevic to split. I'd imagine 50% of the time you're going to see Vucevic get less than 20 minutes.

 

3. If I hold the opinions of Zach Lowe, Bill Simmons, Tom Ziller, Matt Moore (and other bloggers both magic centric and national) in various levels of esteem and they not only say "What are the magic doing?" and they speak to other GM's who say "what are the magic doing?" it makes sense to examine that. Every single writer has some version of "I like their moves I just don't see how they all fit" in their stories. It's intellectually dishonest to run here and be excited when Zach Lowe loves something and completely dismiss his opinion when he says something unfavorable.

 

 

If I'm building a team my primary lineup is going to be Payton-Fournier-Green-Gordon-Ibaka with Hezonja replacing green when he's capable. I'm using Augustin, Meeks, and Biyombo along with Hezonja/Green off the bench. I'm filling the gaps with a 3 and D sg/sf type who might never play or might get thrown at opposing wings when our guys get in foul trouble, a Veteran pg or a developmental guy, a Kendrick Perkins type guy who will never play except in the rare times that we face a Dwight Howard/Andre Drummond type guy that Biyombo might have trouble with, and two Zimmerman types i.e. guys who you let hang around because they might be something in 2-3 years.

 

Right now we have an extra Vucevic that's going to be a minute strain.

 

1. That's fine if you prefer a smaller rotation. But having depth doesn't mean you have to always use it. Payton-Augustin-Fournier-Mario-Gordon-Green-Ibaka-Biyombo-Vuc. That is a nine man rotation. It's not absurd.

 

2. Great! Then I'm thanking my lucky stars that I have enough depth and diversity at C to play our starting PF at PF and not at Center! You are the one exacerbating that minute crunch by trying to put him at the C spot. And even if you did, it's depth!!! Sorry we didn't re-sign Dedmon and upgraded to Biyombo.

 

3. That's fine if you hang on the words of national media guys who probably have watched magic games with a fraction the level of interest we have over the course of this rebuild. Doesn't make them correct. When people here offer reasonable explanations to what's happening and your retort is, but the national media doesn't get it, it doesn't invalidate the thoughtful comments of posters who have been following this team closely. And finally. If a minute crunch at C is the foundation for the "what are the Magic doing" argument, it's super weak and incredibly nit picky given the flexibility we have to make moves as needed.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

1. That's fine if you prefer a smaller rotation. But having depth doesn't mean you have to always use it. Payton-Augustin-Fournier-Mario-Gordon-Green-Ibaka-Biyombo-Vuc. That is a nine man rotation. It's not absurd.

 

2. Great! Then I'm thanking my lucky stars that I have enough depth and diversity at C to play our starting PF at PF and not at Center! You are the one exacerbating that minute crunch by trying to put him at the C spot. And even if you did, it's depth!!! Sorry we didn't re-sign Dedmon and upgraded to Biyombo.

 

3. That's fine if you hang on the words of national media guys who probably have watched magic games with a fraction the level of interest we have over the course of this rebuild. Doesn't make them correct. When people here offer reasonable explanations to what's happening and your retort is, but the national media doesn't get it, it doesn't invalidate the thoughtful comments of posters who have been following this team closely. And finally. If a minute crunch at C is the foundation for the "what are the Magic doing" argument, it's super weak and incredibly nit picky given the flexibility we have to make moves as needed.

 

positional flexibility means guys play more than one position. A minute crunch at center means Ibaka loses minutes at center and plays almost exclusively at the 4 which means Gordon and green lose minutes at the 4 and have to play more often at the 3 which means hezonja gets less minutes at the 3 and has to play the 2 which means meeks has less time at the two. one single roster spot effects the entire rotation.

 

Its not exacerbating the minute issue to play Ibaka at the 5. He's going to play minutes at the 5. That's not up for debate.

[Mack1085 57]

positional flexibility means guys play more than one position. A minute crunch at center means Ibaka loses minutes at center and plays almost exclusively at the 4 which means Gordon and green lose minutes at the 4 and have to play more often at the 3 which means hezonja gets less minutes at the 3 and has to play the 2 which means meeks has less time at the two. one single roster spot effects the entire rotation.

 

Its not exacerbating the minute issue to play Ibaka at the 5. He's going to play minutes at the 5. That's not up for debate.

 

Oooooooooh. That's what positional flexibility means.

 

So...

 

PG - EP(28) Dj(20)

SG - EF (30) MH (8) JM(10)

SF - AG (20) MH (14) JG (14)

PF - SI (32) AG (8) JG (8)

C - NV (24) BB (24)

 

And that's on the fly still giving some minutes to Meeks and Green. The house is not on fire. We can shorten the rotation even more if we want. Ibaka does not have to play center for us to be successful. But guess what...if he does...we have the flexibility to do it and we will if it A) leads to wins and/or B- is made necessary due to injury. This is an OPTION not a PROBLEM. Will we keep all three big guys forever? It's unlikely. But that's about having options, not fixing a problem.

 

These pieces make way more sense than our team last year. If you don't see it or don't want to see it I can't help you anymore.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Oooooooooh. That's what positional flexibility means.

 

So...

 

PG - EP(28) Dj(20)

SG - EF (30) MH (8) JM(10)

SF - AG (20) MH (14) JG (14)

PF - SI (32) AG (8) JG (8)

C - NV (24) BB (24)

 

And that's on the fly still giving some minutes to Meeks and Green. The house is not on fire. We can shorten the rotation even more if we want. Ibaka does not have to play center for us to be successful. But guess what...if he does...we have the flexibility to do it and we will if it A) leads to wins and/or B- is made necessary due to injury. This is an OPTION not a PROBLEM. Will we keep all three big guys forever? It's unlikely. But that's about having options, not fixing a problem.

 

These pieces make way more sense than our team last year. If you don't see it or don't want to see it I can't help you anymore.

 

You didn't shorten the rotation. you just threw numbers next to the same 10 names we're talking about.

 

Gordon deserves more than 28 mpg. Fournier is going to get more than 30. Ibaka is going to get minutes at the center spot. Gordon is going to play a lot of minutes at the 4.

[Odin 137]

positional flexibility means guys play more than one position. A minute crunch at center means Ibaka loses minutes at center and plays almost exclusively at the 4 which means Gordon and green lose minutes at the 4 and have to play more often at the 3 which means hezonja gets less minutes at the 3 and has to play the 2 which means meeks has less time at the two. one single roster spot effects the entire rotation.

 

Its not exacerbating the minute issue to play Ibaka at the 5. He's going to play minutes at the 5. That's not up for debate.

 

Hopefully Gordon will also get some minutes at the 5 because there were some interesting things that happened when he played the 5 last year that should be explored. (small sample size, true, but that is why it is worth exploring). I think we should explore playing Hezonja at least at the 1-3, and etc.

 

It is weird that a bunch of people think Gordon should be solely a 3 now, when he performed well at the 4 last year.

[Mack1085 57]

You didn't shorten the rotation. you just threw numbers next to the same 10 names we're talking about.

 

Gordon deserves more than 28 mpg. Fournier is going to get more than 30. Ibaka is going to get minutes at the center spot. Gordon is going to play a lot of minutes at the 4.

 

Exactly. I didn't shorten the rotation and somehow there are minutes. I'm done doing this with you. Like I said, if you want to view having options as a problem I can't help you. If you can't see that these pieces make more sense than our team last year, I can't help you. If you want to believe our offseason didn't make sense when we went from a 35 win team to a legit playoff contender with a high ceiling this year, I can't help you. I look forward to reading your continued optimism though.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Exactly. I didn't shorten the rotation and somehow there are minutes. I'm done doing this with you. Like I said, if you want to view having options as a problem I can't help you. If you can't see that these pieces make more sense than our team last year, I can't help you. If you want to believe our offseason didn't make sense when we went from a 35 win team to a legit playoff contender with a high ceiling this year, I can't help you. I look forward to reading your continued optimism though.

 

:creaturedance: