GAMETHREAD: ORLANDO vs Washington

[TreyMachine 398]

That article is wrong. Or rather, it's making one claim while posting statistics that don't say what it's saying it does.

 

Actual Orlando Magic team Ortg:

With O'Quinn on the floor: 92.8

With O'Quinn off the floor: 101.9

 

 

The team DOES score a higher percentage of points off assisted baskets while O'Quinn is on the floor, but that's predominantly because the team's starting lineup has multiple isolation scorers on it.

 

TL;DR version: That article is stupid. Stop quoting it.

 

 

 

I can't imagine what the people on this board would think if they watched a big who was actually a good passer. As much as you all over-rate O'Quinn's average passing, watching prime Drob would have made your eyes explode.

 

Anyway, if "someone will pay him I'm sure in the $6-8 million mark" how are we supposed to sign him for as little as half that?

 

 

 

First, Frye's deal ends the same year that Payton and Gordon's rookie deals end. So there is no scenario where anything involving Channing Frye prevents anything involving new contracts for Gordon or Payton.

 

Second, I'm not sure I've seen a single person say that Tobias Harris deserves a max deal.

 

Third, a max deal for a player with less than 6 years experience is less than 16m.

 

 

 

I have zero idea what this has to do with Kyle O'Quinn.

 

 

 

About as well as Tracy McGrady's Magic teams.

 

 

 

When did Durant win a title? When were Parker or Ginobli ever max players?

 

What does any of this have to do with Kyle O'Quinn? Do you think Kyle O'Quinn is a superstar?

 

 

 

You're arguing with yourself here, and I am baffled as to why.

 

I may have died for your space sins, but this post is a mess that may be beyond forgiveness.

 

Space Jesus -

 

Appreciate the love from space. It's good to hear your voice and I'm sorry to make a disappointment, after you took that hit for me and my sins out on that space cross.

 

Like KandiKane before me, I do appreciate the in-depth analysis that went into your post (albeit your sarcasm was a bit much, but hey - you're Space Jesus, so is there really room for me to complain?). I took what the article said and merely cited it as fact without going into the detailed implications of the numbers. So, thanks for clearing that up.

 

The point you seemed to ignore was my comparison of Harris to O'Quinn (or bluntly asked what this had to do with O'Quinn) in terms of signability and bang-for-buck value - which had been argued on the previous page. With your detail of the new Salary Cap, signing all our core players seems much more doable than I had previously held true - in addition to identifying that Frye comes off the books the same year that Payton and Gordon's new contracts would start (for some reason, I wrong interpretted in my head via the cap sheets that they started a year earlier). So, for that, thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

You pointed out that no one wants to sign Harris for the max, yet there are multiple people on this board that believe that Harris should be signed to a max deal by us (or rather we will be forced to sign one if we want to keep him). My claim was that in doing so, we overpay for value that we can find elsewhere - one of those multiple depth-cogs being O'Quinn. That was my chief reason for bringing Harris into the discussion picked up on previous pages.

 

I still hold O'Quinn to be a good key role player, though certainly through this discussion my expectations are at least tempered in light of the numbers and his recent play back to what is probably a "norm" for him in minutes and production.

 

I like O'Quinn. Hope he stays with the team. And I believe we'll sign him in the offseason, presuming someone doesn't see his PER and sign him to a much larger deal than we're willing to offer.

 

Appreciate the discussion.

[LaVar 108]

With Vuc at 12 and harris at 16 we would have an estimated 60 million to split between payton, Vic, Gordon, and Fournier without going over the tax.

 

Edit: that's not including an additional ~10 million for roster filler.

 

I am a no on 16 for harris. I would give him the same contract as vuch. I dont think I sign a max for harris. Hayward got 15.75 and i dont think it was a good contract. 10-14 per year is the number I would like to see.

 

With that said, I think management will match any deal. we have money and want to keep our talent. We are growing with this talent pool and are not in a position were talent will come. I think we will be forced to match at the end of the day.

 

I love harris, but he is not a max guy. I think he can be some day but not yet. You only match a max if you see harris being the face of the franchise.

[Murphy13 185]

I'm not going to insert myself in the O'quinn debate, though I think there are many positives and few negatives about what he brings to the table overall.

 

I do want to make a couple comments regarding Harris though. First and foremost, I have been harder on him than many, and I must admit that I am happy to see more consistency out of him...and I do like his attitude on the floor. However, if he were not on a rookie salary, I would say that his game does not translate well to team success and that money could be better spent...the Carmelo rule it can be called. Sure, he has two game winners and I love game winners, noted. I don't think an 18 and 8 player is deserving of the praise he gets though, which is basically what he's done since he came here-he is just playing healthy now which is explains his ability to stay on the floor and achieve some level of consistency. Also, this contract talk of his is absolutely ridiculous. There is no way he should make more than Nik...no way. No way.

[magicblue 315]

I'm not going to insert myself in the O'quinn debate, though I think there are many positives and few negatives about what he brings to the table overall.

 

I do want to make a couple comments regarding Harris though. First and foremost, I have been harder on him than many, and I must admit that I am happy to see more consistency out of him...and I do like his attitude on the floor. However, if he were not on a rookie salary, I would say that his game does not translate well to team success and that money could be better spent...the Carmelo rule it can be called. Sure, he has two game winners and I love game winners, noted. I don't think an 18 and 8 player is deserving of the praise he gets though, which is basically what he's done since he came here-he is just playing healthy now which is explains his ability to stay on the floor and achieve some level of consistency. Also, this contract talk of his is absolutely ridiculous. There is no way he should make more than Nik...no way. No way.

 

Whether you think he is worthy of a max deal (or making more than Vuc) or not he's going to get one, whether here or somewhere else, so the question isn't "is he worthy" it's do you want Harris on this team or not? For me its a pretty easy yes. He's already an 18/8 guy as a 23 year old and should only get better and, maybe more importantly he's got heart, which elevates in my opinion elevates him a notch or two. Is he an absolute franchise guy, probably not, but I'd contend he's also not a guy we can afford to lose.

[magicblue 315]

I'm not going to insert myself in the O'quinn debate, though I think there are many positives and few negatives about what he brings to the table overall.

 

I do want to make a couple comments regarding Harris though. First and foremost, I have been harder on him than many, and I must admit that I am happy to see more consistency out of him...and I do like his attitude on the floor. However, if he were not on a rookie salary, I would say that his game does not translate well to team success and that money could be better spent...the Carmelo rule it can be called. Sure, he has two game winners and I love game winners, noted. I don't think an 18 and 8 player is deserving of the praise he gets though, which is basically what he's done since he came here-he is just playing healthy now which is explains his ability to stay on the floor and achieve some level of consistency. Also, this contract talk of his is absolutely ridiculous. There is no way he should make more than Nik...no way. No way.

 

Whether you think he is worthy of a max deal (or making more than Vuc) or not he's going to get one, whether here or somewhere else, so the question isn't "is he worthy" it's do you want Harris on this team or not? For me its a pretty easy yes. He's already an 18/8 guy as a 23 year old and should only get better and, maybe more importantly he's got heart, which in my opinion elevates him a notch or two. Is he an absolute franchise guy, probably not, but I'd contend he's also not a guy we can afford to lose.

[magicblue 315]

With Vuc at 12 and harris at 16 we would have an estimated 60 million to split between payton, Vic, Gordon, and Fournier without going over the tax.

 

Edit: that's not including an additional ~10 million for roster filler.

 

We'll go over the tax threshold if need be, so that's a non-issue.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

We'll go over the tax threshold if need be, so that's a non-issue.

 

I don't think we'll go over the tax until we have a proven contender

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Whether you think he is worthy of a max deal (or making more than Vuc) or not he's going to get one, whether here or somewhere else, so the question isn't "is he worthy" it's do you want Harris on this team or not? For me its a pretty easy yes. He's already an 18/8 guy as a 23 year old and should only get better and, maybe more importantly he's got heart, which in my opinion elevates him a notch or two. Is he an absolute franchise guy, probably not, but I'd contend he's also not a guy we can afford to lose.

 

Right. And this max isn't that bad at 16 million when viewed through the lens of an 80+ million cap coming up. Does he "deserve" it? Probably not. But the market will likely dictate that he gets that.

 

Hopefully, teams have him #4 on their lists behind jeff green butler and Kahwi. It'd be great if we get him cheap because the market is flooded.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Triple post ftw

 

One thing we don't want to do is bid against ourselves. We offer him the 4/50 or whatever we had on the table and use restricted free agency as leverage

[Voodoo Man 99]

I'm not going to insert myself in the O'quinn debate, though I think there are many positives and few negatives about what he brings to the table overall.

 

I do want to make a couple comments regarding Harris though. First and foremost, I have been harder on him than many, and I must admit that I am happy to see more consistency out of him...and I do like his attitude on the floor. However, if he were not on a rookie salary, I would say that his game does not translate well to team success and that money could be better spent...the Carmelo rule it can be called. Sure, he has two game winners and I love game winners, noted. I don't think an 18 and 8 player is deserving of the praise he gets though, which is basically what he's done since he came here-he is just playing healthy now which is explains his ability to stay on the floor and achieve some level of consistency. Also, this contract talk of his is absolutely ridiculous. There is no way he should make more than Nik...no way. No way.

Nik is worth more than what we signed him for. You're not going to get that lucky on every signing. How much do you think Nik would be offered this summer if we hadn't signed him?

[Murphy13 185]

Nik is worth more than what we signed him for. You're not going to get that lucky on every signing. How much do you think Nik would be offered this summer if we hadn't signed him?

 

He would easily get the max offer, he's a max player. Harris is not and frankly has a way to go to be in that realm. Assuming Nik stays healthy and plays well I except Harris to normalize to 17/7 numbers this year. 18/8 and 17/7 are both solid, but not all star numbers considering the position he plays, much less max player status. The greatest value he has is in his contract. His talent to this point is entirely duplicable. His output has been the same since he got here, the only good thing that's increased are his minutes (and a noticeable increase in fg%, which is great...despite it heading down recently). As I said earlier, massive kudos to him for maintaining consistency in increased pt so far. I still think he is what he his as far as a player goes, the upside window is merely cracked at this point I suspect. It is far more likely that this is what he is as a player than a hint at something greater. I do like his demeanor, and truly enjoy his two game winners. I am just staying grounded on his trajectory. Also, while I like him, his play itself is like melo in a bad way at times-and would only increase in higher usage scenarios. I'm happy to have him on our team this year! I'm not being negative towards him, but I'm not blindly loving him either.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

He would easily get the max offer, he's a max player. Harris is not and frankly has a way to go to be in that realm. Assuming Nik stays healthy and plays well I except Harris to normalize to 17/7 numbers this year. 18/8 and 17/7 are both solid, but not all star numbers considering the position he plays, much less max player status. The greatest value he has is in his contract. His talent to this point is entirely duplicable. His output has been the same since he got here, the only good thing that's increased are his minutes (and a noticeable increase in fg%, which is great...despite it heading down recently). As I said earlier, massive kudos to him for maintaining consistency in increased pt so far. I still think he is what he his as far as a player goes, the upside window is merely cracked at this point I suspect. It is far more likely that this is what he is as a player than a hint at something greater. I do like his demeanor, and truly enjoy his two game winners. I am just staying grounded on his trajectory. Also, while I like him, his play itself is like melo in a bad way at times-and would only increase in higher usage scenarios. I'm happy to have him on our team this year! I'm not being negative towards him, but I'm not blindly loving him either.

 

The max for a player coming off of a rookie contract isn't really "the max". We aren't talking Rudy Gay money with 20 million+ in a league with a 58 million cap. We're talking 16 million in a league with soon to be a 80 million cap.

 

So, proportionally, it would be like giving harris a 4 year 44 million contract in 2011.