With the east in flux, how far away is Orlando?

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I'd have to really think about how I'd order my list, but it where Thomas would rank would depend on where I put Robertson as a 1 or a 2 and what I decided to do about Cousy.

 

 

But I'd probably put him somewhere between 4 and 6, with him, Payton and Stockton in some order.

 

I have a hard time making lists these days. Too many issues comparing generations that I inevitably just ignore everyone pre-1970 save for the transcendent talent.

[jmmagicfan 302]

What the holy hell is your definition of superstar when one can be a "HOF" player and not be a superstar? On what planet is a guy who put up 21pts and 14asts per game ion a stacked conference NOT a superstar? On what planet is CLYDE FREAKING DREXLER not a superstar?

 

Or is this just one of those things where you'd rather double down on saying ridiculous things than just admit you said something stupid originally?

 

I don't consider Thomas or Drexler as one of the top 3 at their position all-time, that isn't to say they weren't very good or even great players, just not the greatest of the great. I grew up in New England, and was a huge fan of the 70's-80's Celtics, and I think the frontcourt of Bird/McHale/Parrish was one of the greatest frontcourts of all time, especially in '86 when you throw in Walton backing up both the PF/C; I consider McHale as one of the best PF of his generation, but I would still class him as a star, not a superstar. To me, you really have to stand head and shoulders above the rest for at least 4-5 years to be considered a superstar. I will be the first to admit that Isiah suffers a bit because I really hated those Detroit teams, but can't you name at least three PG you would put above him all time? The only position I might go more than 5 or 6 deep classifying players as superstars might be Center.

 

Who would you replace with Isiah?

 

Magic Johnson - 5 titles, re-defined the position

Jerry West - The Logo

Oscar Roberston - only player to average a triple double for a full season

[Murphy13 185]

Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Isaiah, Cousy

 

Nod to Tiny, Kidd, and Nash

 

Frazier and Maravich too, but were they combos?

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I don't consider Thomas or Drexler as one of the top 3 at their position all-time, that isn't to say they weren't very good or even great players, just not the greatest of the great. I grew up in New England, and was a huge fan of the 70's-80's Celtics, and I think the frontcourt of Bird/McHale/Parrish was one of the greatest frontcourts of all time, especially in '86 when you throw in Walton backing up both the PF/C; I consider McHale as one of the best PF of his generation, but I would still class him as a star, not a superstar. To me, you really have to stand head and shoulders above the rest for at least 4-5 years to be considered a superstar. I will be the first to admit that Isiah suffers a bit because I really hated those Detroit teams, but can't you name at least three PG you would put above him all time? The only position I might go more than 5 or 6 deep classifying players as superstars might be Center.

 

Who would you replace with Isiah?

 

Magic Johnson - 5 titles, re-defined the position

Jerry West - The Logo

Oscar Roberston - only player to average a triple double for a full season

 

So we've gone 20+ years with no superstar point guards? If Marcus smart, for whatever reason, becomes the greatest pg of all time does that mean oscar isn't a superstar?

[jmmagicfan 302]

I'd have to really think about how I'd order my list, but it where Thomas would rank would depend on where I put Robertson as a 1 or a 2 and what I decided to do about Cousy.

 

 

But I'd probably put him somewhere between 4 and 6, with him, Payton and Stockton in some order.

Then we don't really disagree on his level that much, I just am pretty tight with the word superstar. To me, among other things you have to be the star at your position for your era. The fact that there are other PG in his own era that you can argue were as good or better kind of negates the "super" tag for me. Magic was "the" PG of his era, Bird was "the" SF, Jordan was "the" SG, et cetera.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Then we don't really disagree on his level that much, I just am pretty tight with the word superstar. To me, among other things you have to be the star at your position for your era. The fact that there are other PG in his own era that you can argue were as good or better kind of negates the "super" tag for me. Magic was "the" PG of his era, Bird was "the" SF, Jordan was "the" SG, et cetera.

 

That's a little too restrictive. Mcgrady was a superstar. So was Kobe and Iverson.

[jmmagicfan 302]

So we've gone 20+ years with no superstar point guards? If Marcus smart, for whatever reason, becomes the greatest pg of all time does that mean oscar isn't a superstar?

 

I don't think we have had one PG dominate an era like they did. Some would argue that the best PG in an era of really good ones should be classified as a "superstar", but when you can have a healthy debate about who was better at a position during the same era, to me it may make them all eligible for star status, but calls into question the "super" part. Can you honestly say Isiah was hands-down better then John Stockton, Gary Payton, Mark Price, and the rest of that generation's PG? Now throw Magic into the same discussion. How many people will argue that Magic wasn't better? There is the difference between star and superstar, in my opinion.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

I don't think we have had one PG dominate an era like they did. Some would argue that the best PG in an era of really good ones should be classified as a "superstar", but when you can have a healthy debate about who was better at a position during the same era, to me it may make them all eligible for star status, but calls into question the "super" part. Can you honestly say Isiah was hands-down better then John Stockton, Gary Payton, Mark Price, and the rest of that generation's PG? Now throw Magic into the same discussion. How many people will argue that Magic wasn't better? There is the difference between star and superstar, in my opinion.

 

By that logic, there's only ever been 1 "superstar" power forward, because the three best power forwards of all time played in overlapping eras.

 

Also: Chamberlain overlapped with Russell AND Kareem, so only one of them could be a superstar. Kareem overlapped with Hakeem, Drob, Moses and Ewing, so they're all out(or Kareem is). Those four overlapped with Shaq who overlapped with....well, you get the point.

[jmmagicfan 302]

That's a little too restrictive. Mcgrady was a superstar. So was Kobe and Iverson.

And I would disagree at least on a couple of them. McGrady was brilliant for 3-4 years, and might have made that leap had his body not given out early. I was never a fan of Iverson's brand of basketball, and his documented disdain of "practice", while humorous, tarnished his star. I just never had the feeling that he 1) had a work-ethic we normally demand of our "superstars" or 2) made his teammates better.

 

I have been a life-long Laker-Hater, so I call Magic, Wilt, Kareem, and Jerry West superstars in spite of that. Kobe is tough for me; his abilities, work-ethic, and results certainly are worthy of the term "superstar" and he has been the standard his era of SG are all held up to, after Michael left the game; but he seems to have had some personal and team-mate conflicts. Are the personal, and off-court issues enough to make me hold back on calling him a "superstar"? Not being the best player on his own team for a third to half his career works against him as well. No, I would still have to classify Kobe as a superstar, but it is closer than you think.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

[jmmagicfan 302]

By that logic, there's only ever been 1 "superstar" power forward, because the three best power forwards of all time played in overlapping eras.

 

Also: Chamberlain overlapped with Russell AND Kareem, so only one of them could be a superstar. Kareem overlapped with Hakeem, Drob, Moses and Ewing, so they're all out(or Kareem is). Those four overlapped with Shaq who overlapped with....well, you get the point.

 

I do get your point, and especially with all the truly great centers, it is difficult. There is always going to be some overlap, but part of how I look at it is, were they the hands-down best for 3-4 years in their prime, and were they in the discussion for best for 8-10 years. Chamberlain, Russell, Kareem, Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq all qualify under that criteria (even though Ewing never won a title). I am on the fence with calling Moses Malone or David Robinson a "superstar". Again, huge fan of Robert Parrish and Bill Walton, but neither of them qualifies for me either, despite each winning rings with multiple teams.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Moses and Drob were both a good deal better than Ewing ever was. Like, comically so. I'm starting to wonder if you even watched basketball before 1996, because you clearly don't remember David Robinson at all, much less Moses.