DanA_TBDP 12 Report post Posted June 7, 2012 To continue my point about Dwight having the ability to carry a team with inferior talent better than McGrady, how many games do you think this deeply flawed roster would have won without Dwight this year? 27 in a regular 82 game season? I don't think it's a stretch to say that we probably would have won 50 games with a fully healthy Dwight in a full season (and that's with him being in full-on "pain in the @ss mode") and could have given the Pacers a run for their money in the first round. Now, whether you completely buy that or not, how many games would McGrady win with the exact same roster? Which player would give the Magic the best chance to win consistently? People are quick to point out the mediocre role players that played with McGrady but don't notice all the weaknesses that Dwight effortlessly covers up. I love Courtney Lee as much as any Magic fan but do you guys realize that Dwight dragged a Magic team to the Finals that was starting 2 career backups in the backcourt? What other team or player can claim that? Ok, the team this year wasn't nearly as bad as the team's TMAC had. For one, this team was built with the idea of Dwight playing near 40 per game and using the Davis/Anderson line-up as a "spark" deal. We were horrible late mostly because we were so small. That's how the team was build around Dwight. Our next two best players were Drew Gooden and 30-year-old Juwan Howard. Come on! Anderson and Davis are better than those two were, our best guard outside of Tracy was Tyronn Lue. All of our guards sub-Duhon are better than him. That 04 team was an abomination. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emory889 353 Report post Posted June 7, 2012 The 04 team was truly bad. However, unless my memory is failing me, Tracy did play more than 1 season with us and not all of those teams were nearly as bad as the team from 04. That one just sticks out the most because it was the last year that he played for us. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlawlessVictory 26 Report post Posted June 7, 2012 2000 - 2001 Cory Alexander John Amaechi Darrell Armstrong Dee Brown Andrew DeClercq Michael Doleac Pat Garrity Grant Hill Troy Hudson Tracy McGrady Mike Miller Bo Outlaw Elliot Perry Don Reid James Robinson Monty Williams 2001 - 2002 Darrell Armstrong Dee Brown Jud Buechler Andrew DeClercq Patrick Ewing Pat Garrity Horace Grant Grant Hill Troy Hudson Steven Hunter Jaren Jackson Tracy McGrady Mike Miller Bo Outlaw Don Reid Jeryl Sasser Monty Williams 2002 - 2003 Darrell Armstrong Pat Burke Andrew DeClercq Pat Garrity Gordan Giricek Drew Gooden Horace Grant Grant Hill Ryan Humphrey Steven Hunter Shawn Kemp Tracy McGrady Mike Miller Olumide Oyedeji Jeryl Sasser Jacque Vaughn Chris Whitney 2003 - 2004 Robert Archibald Keith Bogans Andrew DeClercq Derrick Dial Reece Gaines Pat Garrity Gordan Giricek Drew Gooden Donnell Harvey Juwan Howard Steven Hunter Britton Johnsen Tyronn Lue Tracy McGrady Lee Nailon Zaza Pachulia Desmond Penigar Sean Rooks DeShawn Stevenson Rod Strickland Shammond Williams Those are 4 of the most horrific rosters I've ever seen...inside and out. Not one year with some sort of decent talent or promise around McGrady. Mike Miller was about all he legitimately had and still...Mike Miller? Obviously, this all changes a bit if Mr. glass ankles plays more than 7 total minutes with T-Mac, but that wasn't the case. If we put Dwight in place of T-Mac on any of those 4 teams the Magic would struggle to score more than 80 ppg and wouldn't make the playoffs once. T-Mac was literally able to put the entire team on his back and will them to the playoffs 3 out of 4 years. Furthermore, the only thing T-Mac wanted was some sort of help (which he was so damn right it was ridiculous)...some sort of talent around him period. Sound familiar? It's funny because the only thing McGrady wanted he never got and because of that he started to slack off in practice, team meetings, etc etc...who the hell could blame him? That got him shipped off West without a blink of an eye. Everyone *****ing and moaning about Dwight's actions/words here now...just imagine if he had those rosters that T-Mac had to deal with! To me, there's no question that Tracy McGrady is the best player in Orlando Magic history. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Emory889 353 Report post Posted June 8, 2012 And put McGrady on this year's team and opposing teams would be putting up 120 points on us every night. We would be a worse version of the Warriors. Look, I didn't say that the teams around McGrady were loaded with talent....they weren't good at all. True superstar players find ways to drag their teams to a certain level of respectability regardless of the talent on their team. Jordan did it in his early years with the Bulls. Wade did it with the Heat. Lebron did it with those early Cavs teams. And yes, Dwight has done it as well. This team does not win 30 games without him and would likely have been a 3 seed in the playoffs if he had stayed healthy. Also, the idea that McGrady was a better player than Shaq is laughable. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
magicfan83 23 Report post Posted June 8, 2012 To continue my point about Dwight having the ability to carry a team with inferior talent better than McGrady, how many games do you think this deeply flawed roster would have won without Dwight this year? 27 in a regular 82 game season? I don't think it's a stretch to say that we probably would have won 50 games with a fully healthy Dwight in a full season (and that's with him being in full-on "pain in the @ss mode") and could have given the Pacers a run for their money in the first round. Now, whether you completely buy that or not, how many games would McGrady win with the exact same roster? Which player would give the Magic the best chance to win consistently? People are quick to point out the mediocre role players that played with McGrady but don't notice all the weaknesses that Dwight effortlessly covers up. I love Courtney Lee as much as any Magic fan but do you guys realize that Dwight dragged a Magic team to the Finals that was starting 2 career backups in the backcourt? What other team or player can claim that? I'm not disagreeing with your overall point, Dwight is a better player than McGrady was, but you are severely discounting the impact Lewis had on our playoff run that year. There's a real chance we don't get out of the first round (we were down 2-1 against the Sixers, and were a Turk miracle 3 away from being down 3-1) without Lewis absolutely abusing Andre Miller in the post (they kept switching on the 1-4 pick and roll). We definitely don't beat a KG-less Boston or Cleveland without him. Not to mention the contributions of a still functional Turk, and the bench with Gortat, Pietrus, and occasionally JJ. McGrady, at least at the start of his career with the Magic, was an excellent defender - just on pure length and athleticism alone. He did nearly drag us to a win over the Pistons in a series by himself, the year before they won a title if I'm not mistaken (weren't they the #1 seed?). Then, of course, became the great curse of the Pistons, which has now been moved to the curse of the Celtics. To your last question, Lebron certainly carried a team to the finals by himself in Cleveland. Shaq, in his rookie year, took us one game from the playoffs (*****ing Pacers), the year after we won 21 games. His second year, we won 50 (Pacers again). His third, we made the finals. His 4th, we ran into the 72-10 Bulls. We had a thread about this a while back, but my order is: 1) Shaq 2) Dwight 3) Tie - Penny and McGrady Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
magicfan83 23 Report post Posted June 8, 2012 I think we really need more clarification on this before we can make an informed choice. Are we talking best player that has ever played for Orlando or player with best Orlando Magic career? If we are talking about the best player to ever play for the Magic then the answer is Shaq and it's really not even debatable. If we are talking about best Magic career then I think the answer is Howard over McGrady and Penny. The reason being is that Dwight has made the team a championship contender while McGrady and Penny (after he played with Shaq) were good enough to keep us in playoff contention. Penny did take a team with a big-man rotation of Ike Austin, Michael Doleac, and 73 year old Horace Grant to a tied-for-first place in the East 33-17 record in the lockout shortened season. We lost in the first round, but we drew a pretty terrible matchup against the Sixers that year - think Dallas and Golden State a few years back, when Dirk won the MVP and the Mavs won 67 games. Also, that team was coached by Chuck Daly, whom always seems to be forgotten when we talk about best magic coaches ever. That goes back to "best coach who happened to coach the Magic" vs "Best job coaching the Magic". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlawlessVictory 26 Report post Posted June 8, 2012 And put McGrady on this year's team and opposing teams would be putting up 120 points on us every night. We would be a worse version of the Warriors. Well, considering that the Pacers only averaged just under 95 ppg against us without Dwight I just don't find this true at all. Granted, it was only 5 games, but during the regular without Dwight we didn't give up that many ppg either....on the other hand, those 2000-2004 teams with Dwight REALLY would struggle to score 80 points a game. So, who really has the advantage here? Look, I didn't say that the teams around McGrady were loaded with talent....they weren't good at all. True superstar players find ways to drag their teams to a certain level of respectability regardless of the talent on their team. Jordan did it in his early years with the Bulls. Wade did it with the Heat. Lebron did it with those early Cavs teams. And yes, Dwight has done it as well. As did Mr. McGrady. Also, the idea that McGrady was a better player than Shaq is laughable. I could understand if you don't agree, but laughable? Hardly... We're talking about how good the player was in respect to their time spent as a player for the Orlando Magic, not what they were before or after. Shaq played with Penny and had a GREAT supporting cast. T-Mac played with... Mike Miller and Grant Hill's primary physician He was literally a one man army. Edit: I just saw your other post, I was under the impression that we are talking about players with the best career in Orlando...thus, what I'm basing my arguments on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wharf Rat 94 Report post Posted June 10, 2012 The giant elephant in the room with that argument is they both were straddled with terrible rosters, most-notably McGrady. I would argue that McGrady was the best wing player in the league in his two year prime with Orlando, given that Kobe had every advantage in the world roster wise. Maybe Dwight beats Charlotte in the first round, but I don't think he would have taken guys like Tyronn Lue and Gordan Giricek very far. It's a minor miracle T-Mac got those teams in the playoffs as is, so as great as I think Dwight has been, I struggle to put him over T-Mac. I mean, it might have been a small sample, but in that short amount of time, I think he was all time great. After saying all that, Shaq wins the discussion. 1. Shaq 2. McGrady 3. Howard 4. Penny (if he stays healthy, who knows) This may make you reconsider your position...but I agree with this 100% Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wharf Rat 94 Report post Posted June 10, 2012 Out of the box? You have stepped out of this dimension. :shard: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skywise316 211 Report post Posted June 10, 2012 I agree with Kberto's top four order. Dwight has had more help than T-Mac ever dreamed of having (while here). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Manu Ginobili 61 Report post Posted June 10, 2012 I can't believe people thinking McGrady was better than Dwight during his time here Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OrlandoMagicFan1234 12 Report post Posted June 10, 2012 I can't believe people thinking McGrady was better than Dwight during his time here You must have forgotten that they are on crack Dwight was better than McGrady ever will be Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
