The NBA and fining players for social commentary

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Hibatchi, if you didn't find anything, try again. It's not hard. Today I made a new search and found some more stuff. I'm not just buying. Try Canada, London and Scottland.

 

WORLD Magazine — Street illegal: pastor fined $1,500 for saying homosexual behavior is a sin

 

The linked article includes information about other street preachers who were fined for saying things unrelated to homosexuality. Also, Britain's laws aren't America's laws, and you're being either openly dishonest or painfully ignorant in implying that they are.

 

‘Gay’ atheist warns of ‘tyrannous new … liberal morality’ oppressing Christians

 

The ruling he's referring to is one that allows for parents to be disqualified from being foster care caretakers on the grounds of discriminatory views against homosexuals. This ruling was an addition to existing, similar rules for discriminatory attitudes towards other races and other religions. Would you be upset if someone said: "We won't let people have foster care children under their watch if they hate black people."?

 

Also, their laws aren't our laws.

 

Christian Ministry Fined $23,000 in Gay Discrimination Case

 

They were fined for discrimination against a homosexual employee in the workplace. In Canada, there is far less leniency given towards religious institutions than exists in the states, so that makes sense. If a private company here did what that ministry did, they'd likely be looking at a much bigger financial burden than 23k in the form of a massive lawsuit. And again: Canada's laws aren't America's laws.

 

 

I won't come here and tell you I'm ok with gay marriage 'cause I'm not, but if it is approved, I'd like to be able to keep practicing my religion.

 

No one at any point in any debate I've ever heard over gay marriage has ever suggested banning religion, banning Christianity, or anything else you could possibly be suggesting here. Turn off the talk radio and talk to an actual person. Implying that anyone wants to infringe on YOUR rights in their efforts to obtain equal rights is naive at best and harmful to everyone at worst.

 

I don't want people to be punished for their beliefs when their beliefs are not about killing or slaveing anybody but just in this case that being homosexual is a sin, and nobody is forced to do anything.

 

No one is punished for any belief. If you want to believe that all babies of a certain ethnic or racial group should be rounded up and shot in the face, you're welcome to believe that. You're just not allowed to ACT on that belief.

 

You're welcome to believe homosexuality is an abomination, that gay marriage is a defeat for humanity, that America is going to hell, etc etc etc. But that doesn't change the fact that if, for instance, you own a hot dog stand, it is illegal to refuse to serve someone just because they're gay.

 

I don't want schools to force kids into believing something like it is any fact when there are differing opinions and serious moral implications. Religious beliefs are generlly not taught in public schools. I think it is similar.

 

No one I've ever heard has suggested teaching homosexuality in schools. How would that even work?

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

I don't want ministers forced to marry people they don't want to.

 

Ministers can already refuse to marry people for whatever reason they want, not just homosexuality. If a minister doesn't want to marry a man and a woman, he's welcome to say he won't do it. I don't know why you think ministers will have THEIR rights infringed if gay marriage is a thing, but it's a preposterous thing to believe.

 

I don't want organizations being chased around by gays because they have moral standards for their employees as faith based organizations.

 

Discrimination based on sexual preference is already illegal. You're fighting a war you've already lost on that one.

 

I don't want people to get banned from adopting because they won't teach kids homosexuality is good.

 

Ok...?

 

Here in my land they are already blaming Christian churches when some transexual is killed. Sometimes they don't even wait for the motives.

 

And I'm assuming you have examples of this? And that those examples demonstrate that those conclusions were both inaccurate and demonstrated remarkable bigotry?

 

Also: "some transexual was killed" sounds, at best, fairly blase about the death of a human being, and REALLY intolerant at worst.

 

Gay activists are becoming what they so much say to hate,

 

Meaning what exactly? If you're trying to imply that gays are oppressing straight people, you're going to be laughed at by everyone you ever talk to, because arguing that a minority with fewer rights than the majority is oppressing that majority is a completely indefensible position.

 

and they're making you think they're just victims in the process.

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, but you need to understand how utterly abhorent you sound when you write something like this IMMEDIATELY AFTER posting about a transsexual being murdered.

 

You need to understand that if you want people to take your religious convictions and concerns seriously, you have to stop acting, intentionally or not, like the life of someone different from you is worth less than the life of someone who isn't.

 

I know this thread was basically dead and I don't mean to enter another heated debate. Please just take it as my opinion but try to see the facts.

 

And here lies the rub: you really didn't post any FACTS. You posted a lot of, frankly, right-wing paranoia and fear mongering. The three articles you linked were gross mis-representations of their core arguments designed to insight gay-panic. But those don't hold up in a serious conversation, and they're certainly not going to convince anyone that your argument is right or even valid. Honestly, it just makes it seem like you're really unfamiliar with this issue.

 

There are justifiable reasons to oppose gay marriage, albeit ones with which I'd never agree. However, none of the reasoning you gave falls into that category.

[Emory889 353]

At first I didn't know this was a thread and then I ignored it, since I've had these kind of discussion time and time again at work, always me vs the world with all sorts of accusations and topic adjustment.. it gets old.

 

Hibatchi, if you didn't find anything, try again. It's not hard. Today I made a new search and found some more stuff. I'm not just buying. Try Canada, London and Scottland.

 

WORLD Magazine — Street illegal: pastor fined $1,500 for saying homosexual behavior is a sin

 

‘Gay’ atheist warns of ‘tyrannous new … liberal morality’ oppressing Christians

 

Christian Ministry Fined $23,000 in Gay Discrimination Case

 

I won't come here and tell you I'm ok with gay marriage 'cause I'm not, but if it is approved, I'd like to be able to keep practicing my religion.

 

I don't want people to be punished for their beliefs when their beliefs are not about killing or slaveing anybody but just in this case that being homosexual is a sin, and nobody is forced to do anything.

 

I don't want schools to force kids into believing something like it is any fact when there are differing opinions and serious moral implications. Religious beliefs are generlly not taught in public schools. I think it is similar.

 

I don't want ministers forced to marry people they don't want to. I don't want organizations being chased around by gays because they have moral standards for their employees as faith based organizations.

 

I don't want people to get banned from adopting because they won't teach kids homosexuality is good.

 

Here in my land they are already blaming Christian churches when some transexual is killed. Sometimes they don't even wait for the motives.

 

Gay activists are becoming what they so much say to hate, and they're making you think they're just victims in the process.

 

I know this thread was basically dead and I don't mean to enter another heated debate. Please just take it as my opinion but try to see the facts.

 

I would like to make 3 points. First, all of the links that you provided are sites that are "family oriented" or Christian sites. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it does lead to slanted reporting of the stories. Perhaps all of the details were reported but it was definitely written to portray that Christians are being persecuted for their views on the homosexual community. In other words, there is an agenda.

 

Secondly, all of the reports came from either the UK or Canada and has little bearing on the homosexual debate in this country. There really isn't any relevance because the consitution that governs us is completely different.

 

Finally, I do agree with you on a lot of the concerns that you mentioned. Foster parents shouldn't be required to teach their children morals that they don't believe in no more than homosexual couples should be required to teach their adopted children Christian philosophies. A Christian organization shouldn't be required to employ homosexual employees....though I don't know the measures that the organization used to pressure the employee to quit. I think these are legitimate quarrels.

 

It's pretty easy to cite examples of extreme cases one way or the other. I'm sure you could find other examples of Christians getting harrassed for their views and I know I can find cases of homosexuals receiving abuse as well. These cases get the most noriety because of the outcry but they really aren't the norm. Despite the rhetoric, there really isn't a serious push for pastors to be forced to perform homosexual marriage ceremonies. Christian organizations aren't routinely being "chased around by gays". Schools certainly aren't forcing students to study homosexual curriculums (whatever the hell that would consist of but you aren't the first person that I've heard it from). All of this rhetoric is stuff that is routinely preached from pulpits in a effort to mobilize congregations into action through fear. Most of the time the congregation take the pastor's word for it as fact without doing any research on the matter themselves.

 

I've honestly never seen a case of homosexuals deliberately trying to stomp on Christians constitutional rights....despite constantly being accused of it. I have, however, seen multiple cases of the church attempting to limit the rights of homosexuals. I live in Utah and the LDS church has spent millions on commercials in an attempt to ban gay marriage in California. It's one of the reasons I have a hard time listening to Christians complain about discrimination and take it seriously.

[NameLess Scrub 6]

The linked article includes information about other street preachers who were fined for saying things unrelated to homosexuality. Also, Britain's laws aren't America's laws, and you're being either openly dishonest or painfully ignorant in implying that they are.

 

 

Not being openly dishonest, just thought they could be compared.

 

The ruling he's referring to is one that allows for parents to be disqualified from being foster care caretakers on the grounds of discriminatory views against homosexuals. This ruling was an addition to existing, similar rules for discriminatory attitudes towards other races and other religions. Would you be upset if someone said: "We won't let people have foster care children under their watch if they hate black people."?

 

Also, their laws aren't our laws.

 

Of course I wouldn't be upset because of that, but I don't consider homosexualism a race, it would be more like a belief, you either believe it is acceptable or not. So people shouldn't be disqualified for not teaching it is acceptable behavior.

 

They were fined for discrimination against a homosexual employee in the workplace. In Canada, there is far less leniency given towards religious institutions than exists in the states, so that makes sense. If a private company here did what that ministry did, they'd likely be looking at a much bigger financial burden than 23k in the form of a massive lawsuit. And again: Canada's laws aren't America's laws.

 

 

 

 

No one at any point in any debate I've ever heard over gay marriage has ever suggested banning religion, banning Christianity, or anything else you could possibly be suggesting here. Turn off the talk radio and talk to an actual person. Implying that anyone wants to infringe on YOUR rights in their efforts to obtain equal rights is naive at best and harmful to everyone at worst.

 

You should hear that they want to make hate speech illegal. They can expand the definition of hate speech and when somebody is preaching homosexualism is a sin, they can label it as hate speech.

 

No one is punished for any belief. If you want to believe that all babies of a certain ethnic or racial group should be rounded up and shot in the face, you're welcome to believe that. You're just not allowed to ACT on that belief.

 

You're welcome to believe homosexuality is an abomination, that gay marriage is a defeat for humanity, that America is going to hell, etc etc etc. But that doesn't change the fact that if, for instance, you own a hot dog stand, it is illegal to refuse to serve someone just because they're gay.

 

I think it's obvious I'm not talking about refusing to give a service or sell something. What I meant is Christianity is all about preaching. I don't want to keep my beliefs for myself and Christians don't hurt anybody by telling people they need repentance. People choose if they want to believe or not.

 

No one I've ever heard has suggested teaching homosexuality in schools. How would that even work?

 

It is teaching homosexuality as a good, normal, acceptable conduct. I might have simplified the statement, but that's what me or anybody that says that probably means. There are already books made for little kids.

[Berto 338]

DoM's older posts look really stupid now with the name change.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Homosexuality isn't a race, but discriminating based on culture and sexual preference are also illegal.

 

Who is "they" that wants to make hate speech illegal? What are they defining as hate speech? In what situations would it be illegal? You're making accusations about the things "they" want to do. Who are these people that are doing this? Don't just say "Gays', give examples.

 

You're argument about preaching is, as near as I can tell, based on one heavily slanted article about an event that transpired in another country. If that's the only reason you're concerned over this, then you're being paranoid for no reason.

 

Did anyone teach you in school that being Muslim was acceptable? Or being Hispanic? Or having glasses? Or being skinny?

 

Of course not. Kids are taught to behave, not to be *****ing Gandhi.

[NameLess Scrub 6]

Ministers can already refuse to marry people for whatever reason they want, not just homosexuality. If a minister doesn't want to marry a man and a woman, he's welcome to say he won't do it. I don't know why you think ministers will have THEIR rights infringed if gay marriage is a thing, but it's a preposterous thing to believe.

 

 

 

Discrimination based on sexual preference is already illegal. You're fighting a war you've already lost on that one.

 

I think you're right. But aren't religious organizations entitled to hire people they can trust? Do you think a muslim community organization should be forced to hire Christians if part of their work is based on muslim values? Anyway you're still right I suppose.

 

Ok...?

 

This was regarding the London example.

 

 

And I'm assuming you have examples of this? And that those examples demonstrate that those conclusions were both inaccurate and demonstrated remarkable bigotry?

 

Also: "some transexual was killed" sounds, at best, fairly blase about the death of a human being, and REALLY intolerant at worst.

 

In no way I tried to imply I don't care about a death of a transexual. I'm sorry if that's what came through. I'm trying to say that of all people killed here, which are all equal but don't receive the same attention, if it's someone from the LGBT comunnity some activists, logically, make expression about it. Giving you a example is hard right now and it would be in spanish. Maybe you want to forget about this.

 

Meaning what exactly? If you're trying to imply that gays are oppressing straight people, you're going to be laughed at by everyone you ever talk to, because arguing that a minority with fewer rights than the majority is oppressing that majority is a completely indefensible position.

 

I have no reason to think gays opress straight people. I meant oppressing people that don't think like them in general. At least here, they have not proven the majority of the population agrees with their claims. They have influence though.

 

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, but you need to understand how utterly abhorent you sound when you write something like this IMMEDIATELY AFTER posting about a transsexual being murdered.

 

You need to understand that if you want people to take your religious convictions and concerns seriously, you have to stop acting, intentionally or not, like the life of someone different from you is worth less than the life of someone who isn't.

 

I'm not sure my likely poor choice of words justifies this.. but as I said, I don't act like that. It's not woth less than mine or whoever is similar to me in this context.

 

And here lies the rub: you really didn't post any FACTS. You posted a lot of, frankly, right-wing paranoia and fear mongering. The three articles you linked were gross mis-representations of their core arguments designed to insight gay-panic. But those don't hold up in a serious conversation, and they're certainly not going to convince anyone that your argument is right or even valid. Honestly, it just makes it seem like you're really unfamiliar with this issue.

 

There are justifiable reasons to oppose gay marriage, albeit ones with which I'd never agree. However, none of the reasoning you gave falls into that category.

 

I understand everything you've said, but I'm not sure why you think I didn't post facts. I understand why you'd think they aren't applicable to the US, but they're still reports on events that happened.

 

 

 

Thanks for the post... I always get something.

[NameLess Scrub 6]

Homosexuality isn't a race, but discriminating based on culture and sexual preference are also illegal.

 

Who is "they" that wants to make hate speech illegal? What are they defining as hate speech? In what situations would it be illegal? You're making accusations about the things "they" want to do. Who are these people that are doing this? Don't just say "Gays', give examples.

 

You're argument about preaching is, as near as I can tell, based on one heavily slanted article about an event that transpired in another country. If that's the only reason you're concerned over this, then you're being paranoid for no reason.

 

Did anyone teach you in school that being Muslim was acceptable? Or being Hispanic? Or having glasses? Or being skinny?

 

Of course not. Kids are taught to behave, not to be *****ing Gandhi.

 

 

I was using the links as example about how somebody can be fined or imprisoned because his speech is consider anti-gay hate speech and peace breaching. I already know you don't validate those examples. I understand why in terms of different laws but I still see a guy being accused of peace breaching because of homophobic remarks,.... after being asked.

 

I assume activists in the USA and other places would want things to be the same, mostly because that would further help legitimize their conduct. If you think that's not reasonable, then OK.

 

 

Everybody here is hispanic... lol

 

When I talk about education because that's one of the issues. I thought everybody knew that. When I said there are books... here's an example of what I'm talking about.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_%26_King

 

You need to understand that while I credit you for some thing you're saying, I'm not sure where some of them come from, or why are you implying so much paranoia when I'm just concerned about precedents. I know countries are not the same, but I still can worry about the implications of bringing stuff applied to other countries to mine.

 

You can call me dumb or whatever names you can come up with.. lol..

[NameLess Scrub 6]

I would like to make 3 points. First, all of the links that you provided are sites that are "family oriented" or Christian sites. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it does lead to slanted reporting of the stories. Perhaps all of the details were reported but it was definitely written to portray that Christians are being persecuted for their views on the homosexual community. In other words, there is an agenda.

 

Secondly, all of the reports came from either the UK or Canada and has little bearing on the homosexual debate in this country. There really isn't any relevance because the consitution that governs us is completely different.

 

Finally, I do agree with you on a lot of the concerns that you mentioned. Foster parents shouldn't be required to teach their children morals that they don't believe in no more than homosexual couples should be required to teach their adopted children Christian philosophies. A Christian organization shouldn't be required to employ homosexual employees....though I don't know the measures that the organization used to pressure the employee to quit. I think these are legitimate quarrels.

 

It's pretty easy to cite examples of extreme cases one way or the other. I'm sure you could find other examples of Christians getting harrassed for their views and I know I can find cases of homosexuals receiving abuse as well. These cases get the most noriety because of the outcry but they really aren't the norm. Despite the rhetoric, there really isn't a serious push for pastors to be forced to perform homosexual marriage ceremonies. Christian organizations aren't routinely being "chased around by gays". Schools certainly aren't forcing students to study homosexual curriculums (whatever the hell that would consist of but you aren't the first person that I've heard it from). All of this rhetoric is stuff that is routinely preached from pulpits in a effort to mobilize congregations into action through fear. Most of the time the congregation take the pastor's word for it as fact without doing any research on the matter themselves.

 

I've honestly never seen a case of homosexuals deliberately trying to stomp on Christians constitutional rights....despite constantly being accused of it. I have, however, seen multiple cases of the church attempting to limit the rights of homosexuals. I live in Utah and the LDS church has spent millions on commercials in an attempt to ban gay marriage in California. It's one of the reasons I have a hard time listening to Christians complain about discrimination and take it seriously.

 

Understood. Thanks for acknowledging the moral implications of being imposed the acceptance of homosexuality.

 

My general vision is that gay activists are really made look good by most of the media. Here in PR, we even have a news reporter that takes on related coverage and puts her opinion on the video edition. She has also made a "special investigation" making conclusions on how certain Christian ministers use the church money ilegally. These ministers happen to be active in moral issues discussed in the island. She was sued for that because she had no proof.

 

I think it is well known that much of the media in the USA is liberal.

 

What I'm trying to say is, I cannot trust everything is like it is presented on the TV or even the news.

[TheREALBrooksThompson 157]

I assume activists in the USA and other places would want things to be the same, mostly because that would further help legitimize their conduct. If you think that's not reasonable, then OK.

 

This is your biggest problem here. Don't assume what other people want. Listen to them and address whatever objections you have with what they're actually trying to do. You're making strawmen all over the place here.

[BMP 424]

Hmmm, do I side with the gay guy that's just asking to be treated equally and not be harassed for his way of life or with the guy that's carrying around an outdated book to bash gay people and impede them from living a normal life. . . .

[Emory889 353]

When I talk about education because that's one of the issues. I thought everybody knew that. When I said there are books... here's an example of what I'm talking about.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_%26_King

 

That isn't a school textbook. It's a children's book that parents can buy for their child if they choose to do so.