NOLA trades Collison = no CP3 to Magic?

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Forget the fact that netting ben gordon would be giving us the shortest backcourt in the league, and one of the worst defensively...and wrap your head around giving a borderline starter/backup type player 48 million dollars over the next 4 years. That is horrible in its own right. Furthermore he is streaky at best, although has had some good games against us so I can see why a Magic fan would think its a good trade. Detroit would be doing backflips over that, knowing that they shnookered the Magic again.

 

I dont mind getting Prince, except that he is more or less done imho. He is expiring, but we would be trading expiring deals to get him(Vince), and Vince brings monetary value in the form of expiring AND he sells tix AND he can still play. Prince is declining, fast. I would love him on this team if he gets bought out after being traded and comes to us for a prorated contract for a playoff run though.

 

edit:^ or if we get Prince in a package for a longterm deal like Shard(wishful thinking though)

 

The Magic's problem ever since McGrady left is having a player who is capable of hitting shots in "clutch" moments. We're fine offensively and defensively as a team, we're just screwed when we need someone who can take over and go shot for shot with an opposing player in the last few minutes of a game.

 

We know that 1. Carter isn't capable of doing that and 2. Carter's not good enough anymore to net us anyone who can (i.e. everyone better than Carter is pretty much locked down with their team forever)

 

Why would Ben Gordon/this trade in general be a good move for the magic.

 

1. While Gordon is never going to be known for his defense, is he going to be any worse than Vince?

 

2. The proposed trade would allow us to upgrade our starting SF slot, ESPECIALLY defensively.

So while Gordon might be a little worse than Carter defensively, we would add a shut down defensive player to our arsenal.

 

3. Gordon doesn't need a whole lot of minutes. He could essentially platoon with JJ at the SG spot and be used as the trumph card in 4th quarter closing situations.

 

4. Clutch stats! 07-08 Gordon was a top 5 player in Clutch production http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

08-09 Gordon was a top 15 player in Clutch production http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

06-07 i cant find a sortable list but his numbers are comparable to 07-08 http://www.82games.com/0607/06CHI4E.HTM

 

5. Performing against Big time competition.

career numbers in playoffs 20ppg in 29 games.

 

6. fits our offense as a deadly shooter.

career 3pt% at 40.4% high of 43.5% during 05-06 season

[Murphy13 185]

Dwight sells tickets. When I go to Magic games I look forward to seeing Dwight, not Half-man, Half-retired.

 

 

Me too, but Vince is still a draw. I am as frustrated with him as anyone here, but he generates revenue.

[Butterfly 3]

My husband told me when the rumors started that the Paul trade was not going to happen. So I am not disappointed. Gortat is the player I worry about the most. He is a good player, but he might become a problem in the lockerroon. He has made it pretty clear that he does not want be behind Dwight. I like HIbbert- a big- would have been nice if Magic could trade Gortat for Hibbert.

[Murphy13 185]

Why would Ben Gordon/this trade in general be a good move for the magic.

 

1. While Gordon is never going to be known for his defense, is he going to be any worse than Vince?

Yes is the simple answer, but that aside our SG's defensive PER was higher than any other position on the team last year, next to the Center position. This leads me to believe that Vince isnt as bad at D as he gets credit for.

2. The proposed trade would allow us to upgrade our starting SF slot, ESPECIALLY defensively.

So while Gordon might be a little worse than Carter defensively, we would add a shut down defensive player to our arsenal.

It would be an upgrade if we were talking 08/09 Prince, but Prince is slowing down. That being said I would be happy to have Prince on this team, as I already mentioned. However, I think we will be seeing a slight change in philosophy regarding the makeup of the team next year, mainly in the form of having Shard there at the 3 for a lot of minutes. This is just a hunch, but I believe the SF spot will be expected to contribute offensively moreso than last year. At this juncture, I think that Q would fit our SF need better, and Prince brings a 'name' that is familiar with Magic fans, his production isnt what it used to be.

3. Gordon doesn't need a whole lot of minutes. He could essentially platoon with JJ at the SG spot and be used as the trumph card in 4th quarter closing situations.

Agreed, he wouldnt need a lot of minutes...hence the reason why I question paying him 48 million dollars over 4 years to be playing backup minutes!

4. Clutch stats! 07-08 Gordon was a top 5 player in Clutch production http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM

08-09 Gordon was a top 15 player in Clutch production http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

06-07 i cant find a sortable list but his numbers are comparable to 07-08 http://www.82games.com/0607/06CHI4E.HTM

He was very good a couple years ago...put up Vince Carter numbers(almost). But why are we living in the past? How did he do this year? My issue resides in his contract more than anything. You act like he is an upgrade but think about what kind of bind his contract would put us in.

5. Performing against Big time competition.

career numbers in playoffs 20ppg in 29 games.

He certainly has highlight games, for sure. He also has a lot of no show games. Once again, he is streaky.

6. fits our offense as a deadly shooter.

career 3pt% at 40.4% high of 43.5% during 05-06 season

His 32% from three was very deadly last year, but deadly in a different way than you are suggesting.

 

I am writing in red just to set it off from your comments, I am not angry or murderous or anything. Plus it gives me a chance to mess with the system. I feel like even with BG's good years-which were a couple years ago it still equaled what Vince is still capable of doing with a more favorable contract that we can save for a better player if the right trade comes up. Furthermore, Vince is more well rounded. He can pass and rebound. Ben Gordon? Not so much. I am worried about Ben Gordon too, he had a very rough year in a situation where he should have thrived. Perhaps it was just a speed bump, and he did have a pretty gnarly injury so he could come back strong. But one thing is for sure and that is I wouldnt want him playing more than 20-25 mpg due to his one dimensional nature, and his price is just too steep for a role player. Just trying to be fiscally responsible here.

[Da Blues Man 13]

Me too, but Vince is still a draw. I am as frustrated with him as anyone here, but he generates revenue.

I think that Vince generated revenue LAST year when we got him, but because of LAST year, he no longer generates revenue. He's got a huge expiring contract, and nobody is knocking on the door for him. Why is that? I really doubt that he is selling tickets for the Magic if that is what you are referring to.

[sharp/7/shooter 23]

Wow, 3 teams in his first 3 years. I feel bad for Courtney

 

You really shouldn't. He has already tasted a championship series, and that was in in his rookie year. He was shipped to the Nets and got a taste of failure because, quite frankly, they were the poster boys of that. Now he's traded to a mid-level Western Conference team that has the capability of edging out a playoff berth. After this season, he will have experience that many players would not have after 3 years in the league. Oh, and IMO anyone would be glad to hop off the Nets squad and their fiasco :headbang: .

[Murphy13 185]

I think that Vince generated revenue LAST year when we got him, but because of LAST year, he no longer generates revenue. He's got a huge expiring contract, and nobody is knocking on the door for him. Why is that? I really doubt that he is selling tickets for the Magic if that is what you are referring to.

 

 

If Vince Carter went to Detroit for example, he would sell a ton of jerseys and tickets, like he did here. We would have sold a lot of tickets last year regardless, but there was a serious buzz about Vince when he got here. Prince doesnt have that kind of draw, thats all I was saying. When it comes to trading someone like that, you get percieved value to the team he is getting traded to. Like in NOH for example(not that the CP3 trade is happening) but they could sell their fanbase on having a name brand which would take some sting out of losing a franchise player. I am no vc fanboy by any stretch but he has turned into the scapegoat here. He is fully capable of coming back strong and giving us very good value at the trade deadline next year.

[Da Blues Man 13]

shooter' date='11 August 2010 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1281567257' post='567856']

You really shouldn't. He has already tasted a championship series, and that was in in his rookie year. He was shipped to the Nets and got a taste of failure because, quite frankly, they were the poster boys of that. Now he's traded to a mid-level Western Conference team that has the capability of edging out a playoff berth. After this season, he will have experience that many players would not have after 3 years in the league. Oh, and IMO anyone would be glad to hop off the Nets squad and their fiasco :headbang: .

I understand what you are saying, but I think what he was referring to is CLee having to adjust to 3 new coaches, 3 new teams, and 3 new cities in such a short time span. Sure would like to see him back in a Magic uniform.

[sharp/7/shooter 23]

If Vince Carter went to Detroit for example, he would sell a ton of jerseys and tickets, like he did here. We would have sold a lot of tickets last year regardless, but there was a serious buzz about Vince when he got here. Prince doesnt have that kind of draw, thats all I was saying. When it comes to trading someone like that, you get percieved value to the team he is getting traded to. Like in NOH for example(not that the CP3 trade is happening) but they could sell their fanbase on having a name brand which would take some sting out of losing a franchise player. I am no vc fanboy by any stretch but he has turned into the scapegoat here. He is fully capable of coming back strong and giving us very good value at the trade deadline next year.

 

Murphy, Carter's value dropped after last season. If you were management, there are two things among others that you need to evaluate: can VC A) comeback from last season's drop in production, and B) will his output overtake the assets you are trading?

 

Since his value has dropped, so has the "name brand". Teams are always interested in getting better talent and winning championships. The end product would bring in more money. Would VC promote that vision?

[Da Blues Man 13]

If Vince Carter went to Detroit for example, he would sell a ton of jerseys and tickets, like he did here. We would have sold a lot of tickets last year regardless, but there was a serious buzz about Vince when he got here. Prince doesnt have that kind of draw, thats all I was saying. When it comes to trading someone like that, you get percieved value to the team he is getting traded to. Like in NOH for example(not that the CP3 trade is happening) but they could sell their fanbase on having a name brand which would take some sting out of losing a franchise player. I am no vc fanboy by any stretch but he has turned into the scapegoat here. He is fully capable of coming back strong and giving us very good value at the trade deadline next year.

So you don't think anybody in Detroit watched the playoffs last year? Sorry, but unless he steps up his game, his jersey is gonna be a tough sell anywhere. Just my opinion.

[magicLA 57]

Knicks : Gortat + VC

Magic : Azabuike + Turiaf + Walker + Curry

 

This trade converts Vince Carter's $18M expiring contract and Gortat's $7M/4yr overpriced contract into 3 expiring contracts + a 2yr/small rookie contract. The Magic get more athletic and younger at the wing getting a 1 yr test run at Azabuike who I think would explode with the Magic and give us the advantage in signing him next year. Turiaf fills the backup C role at a much better value with similar results plus he's capable of sliding to PF if needed. In addition the Magic hold Curry's $11M expiring to either waive or trade.

 

The Knicks get their starting center whose game complements Stoudemire perfectly. In addition they get VC value as a player and commercial appeal plus at the end of the season they get a huge contract off the books to positioning themselves to make a run at Carmelo.

Magic:

Nelson/Duhon/Williams

Azabuike/JJ/Walker

QRich/Pietrus

Lewis/Anderson/Bass

Howard/Turiaf/Bass/Orton

*Curry would never set foot in the Magic locker room - used only to match salaries - he would get waived

 

Hollinger:

 

"Azabuike succeeded with a two-pronged offensive attack, shooting 44.8 percent on 3-pointers but also overpowering smaller guards inside -- the majority of his 2-point attempts came in the immediate basket area and he converted 54.7 percent of them"..."a multifaceted scorer: He can shoot 3s very well off the catch, but he also can post up small guards and make plays around the basket"..."second among shooting guards in offensive rebound rate and seventh in blocks per minute"..."a decent athlete with good strength, making him a pretty good defensive player overall and particularly effective against those who play a power game" 09-10 Stats: 13.9 PPG / .545 FG% / 4.6 RPG / 1.1 APG / 19.84 PER / 62.3 TS% / .370 3PT%

 

"Turiaf came in second in blocks per minute"..."A wild ball of energy"..."led all centers in both assist ratio and pure point rating, deftly setting up teammates from the high post with a surprisingly low cost in turnovers'...Turiaf is undersized for a center at 6-foot-10, and on many teams he'd be playing power forward. That's probably his best position because he has the range to hit 15-footers and has quietly become an adept passer. Moreover, his lack of rebounding is less glaring at that spot"..."he's strong and tough and plays good post defense despite giving up inches to most centers"..."will play about 20 minutes a night behind Andris Biedrins and look to energize the second unit with his shot-blocking and general enthusiasm"

Knicks:

Felton/Douglas

VC/Mason

Gallinari/Chandler

Stoudemire/Randolph

Gortat/Mozgov

[SF Magic Fan 0]

Knicks : Gortat + VC

Magic : Azabuike + Turiaf + Walker + Curry

 

This trade converts Vince Carter's $18M expiring contract and Gortat's $7M/4yr overpriced contract into 3 expiring contracts + a 2yr/small rookie contract. The Magic get more athletic and younger at the wing getting a 1 yr test run at Azabuike who I think would explode with the Magic and give us the advantage in signing him next year. Turiaf fills the backup C role at a much better value with similar results plus he's capable of sliding to PF if needed. In addition the Magic hold Curry's $11M expiring to either waive or trade.

 

The Knicks get their starting center whose game complements Stoudemire perfectly. In addition they get VC value as a player and commercial appeal plus at the end of the season they get a huge contract off the books to positioning themselves to make a run at Carmelo.

Magic:

Nelson/Duhon/Williams

Azabuike/JJ/Walker

QRich/Pietrus

Lewis/Anderson/Bass

Howard/Turiaf/Bass/Orton

*Curry would never set foot in the Magic locker room - used only to match salaries - he would get waived

 

Hollinger:

 

"Azabuike succeeded with a two-pronged offensive attack, shooting 44.8 percent on 3-pointers but also overpowering smaller guards inside -- the majority of his 2-point attempts came in the immediate basket area and he converted 54.7 percent of them"..."a multifaceted scorer: He can shoot 3s very well off the catch, but he also can post up small guards and make plays around the basket"..."second among shooting guards in offensive rebound rate and seventh in blocks per minute"..."a decent athlete with good strength, making him a pretty good defensive player overall and particularly effective against those who play a power game" 09-10 Stats: 13.9 PPG / .545 FG% / 4.6 RPG / 1.1 APG / 19.84 PER / 62.3 TS% / .370 3PT%

 

"Turiaf came in second in blocks per minute"..."A wild ball of energy"..."led all centers in both assist ratio and pure point rating, deftly setting up teammates from the high post with a surprisingly low cost in turnovers'...Turiaf is undersized for a center at 6-foot-10, and on many teams he'd be playing power forward. That's probably his best position because he has the range to hit 15-footers and has quietly become an adept passer. Moreover, his lack of rebounding is less glaring at that spot"..."he's strong and tough and plays good post defense despite giving up inches to most centers"..."will play about 20 minutes a night behind Andris Biedrins and look to energize the second unit with his shot-blocking and general enthusiasm"

Knicks:

Felton/Douglas

VC/Mason

Gallinari/Chandler

Stoudemire/Randolph

Gortat/Mozgov

 

Everything sounds good except for Curry