Off-Day Open Thread: What Do You Make of the Orlando Magic's Four-Out/One-In Offense?

[iTs JUST zo 29]

quote:

Originally posted by barnettej:

We cant just rely on one guy (D12)... we would become the Cavaliers.

 

We need to be able to have multiple options on scoring... and we need to have options when the 4-1 isnt going anywhere.

agreed, but we arent the cavs. all im saying is if dwight can be a dominant 1v1 player and get the few teams that dont double him to the point where they have to it will make everything so much easier for everyone else.. as evidence by the teams that already double him. as for letting him get his and let everyone else beat you, their are very few big men in the history of the game that can single handingly win games in the post and if dwight really wants to be the best ever like he says hes gonna have to add his name to that list. and it might be blind homerism but i think he can. but of course everyone else will have to step up to win it all, or else ya, wed be like the cavs.

[Debonair 106]

nope. it doesn't work against teams that don't double-team dwight and dwight is not skilled enough to run the front court by himself. stan van gundy's system creates a problem for catching offensive rebounds which would be very beneficial to this team.

 

the stretch 4 doesn't work against teams like la and boston. someone has to come in there and help dwight with rebounding and getting the other bigs in foul trouble. rashard hardly ever went to the freethrow line this season. having 4 players on the perimeter will not lead this team to a championship, imo.

 

fat head stan saw his system unravel right before his eyes last year in the finals yet he continued on with it which lead to the magic getting embarrassed in this years ecf. teams are gonna pick up on this. they're gonna let dwight toss their centers around to keep him from kicking the ball out to the perimeter guys for 3pt shots.

 

the system needs to end and this team needs to play traditional ball.

[Captain Hi-Top 791]

quote:

Originally posted by barnettej:

 

Awesome.. statistically the Suns and Magic are not the same...

 

However... their games are pretty much the same.. Run the floor... shoot alot of 3's.. run the 1-5 pick and roll.

 

If I would ask everyone the question, with out looking at the stats... Which team is similar to the Magic?

 

Most would say Suns.

 

Now... Have the Suns won any championships... Nope

 

Have we won any... Nope

 

At the end of the day... we are the same.

 

That is an absolutely horrible comparison, and, quite frankly, I'm embarrassed for you.

 

Run the floor... Orlando is 18th overall for pace. That's not even in the top 50% of the league. Phoenix is 4th overall. THere is almost half of the entire league of difference between the two teams, but yeah, I guess that's close.

 

Shoot alot of 3's... No one shoots more three point shots than Orlando. In terms of raw number, or in terms of a percentage of overall shots. 35% of Orlando shot attempts are from behind the arc. Thirty. Five. Percent. New York is the closest thing resembling that, coming in at 31%. Phoenix comes in at 26%. That's a difference on 9% fewer shots from behind the arc. Pretty significant. They take more shots per game due to pace and yet we took almost 500 more three point attempts. I would suggest to you that we aren't really close in that regard either.

 

Run the 1-5 P&R. Well, the P&R is a staple in any team, and who better to set a pick for your PG than your big man, both as a large body, and to draw the other teams center away from the rim to clear space. Nothing of substance here either.

 

Popular opinion is no substitute for fact. Particularly when it's tainted by talking heads at ESPN repeating common phrases like "Orlando lives and dies by the three", which completely ignores what the team has accomplished defensively. Consequently, I think maybe you watch a little too much ESPN or put a little too much emphasis on some of those talking heads, because you are basically pushing those phrases here as fact, without the facts to back them up.

 

How many teams have not won championships in the past 20 years in the NBA? Most of them

 

How many of those teams "run the floor"? According to your comparison above, all of them.

 

How many of them shoot a lot of threes? Over half the league shoots more than 20% of their shots from behind the arc

 

How many run the 1-5 pick and roll? Most of them

 

ZOMG! At the end of the day, we are ALL THE SAME!!!

[TheRevTy 6]

I've gotten into a bad habit of reading parts of the original post, scanning the first page for well-thought out responses, and then skipping to the last page to interject my opinion.

 

Such has occurred here.

 

The issue isn't truly the 4-out offense. The issue comes on defense, where our "stretch 4" is, in reality, a "tall 3". Rashard has never been good at boxing out and is only an average SF when it comes to rebounding. On top of that, try as he might, he isn't a good help defender in the post. He's become surprisingly solid at man on man post D, but that's about it.

 

In an ideal world, our stretch 4 is an actual 4 with range. That means on offense, he roams the perimeter, as well as can slice inside to grab an offensive board for a put-back. On defense, he needs to act as a PF would, boxing out, grabbing rebounds, occasionally offering some weak-side help defense.

[UBBALLER8 248]

quote:

Originally posted by TheRevTy:

I've gotten into a bad habit of reading parts of the original post, scanning the first page for well-thought out responses, and then skipping to the last page to interject my opinion.

 

Such has occurred here.

 

The issue isn't truly the 4-out offense. The issue comes on defense, where our "stretch 4" is, in reality, a "tall 3". Rashard has never been good at boxing out and is only an average SF when it comes to rebounding. On top of that, try as he might, he isn't a good help defender in the post. He's become surprisingly solid at man on man post D, but that's about it.

 

In an ideal world, our stretch 4 is an actual 4 with range. That means on offense, he roams the perimeter, as well as can slice inside to grab an offensive board for a put-back. On defense, he needs to act as a PF would, boxing out, grabbing rebounds, occasionally offering some weak-side help defense.

 

Boozer?

[TheRevTy 6]

Boozer's range only goes to about the free throw line, maybe a little further.

 

In terms of a model, I'm thinking someone like prime Rasheed, before he gave up offense inside the 3 point line.

 

Edit: I should add that Boozer would be very good here, and if Dwight gains confidence in his offensive game, it would be a scary duo. But in terms of the ideal stretch 4, he doesn't fit the mold.

[Darthmagic 0]

The system can work and is a very potent weapon, but our version has some serious flaws that will prevent it from taking us to the promise land IMO. Floor spacing is critical in the NBA we have seen that over the years, but so is rebounding and interior defense. Having a 3 posing as a 4 will simply not get it done.

 

Dwight needs help inside and on the boards, and Rashard provides none of that. Players like Okur and Troy Murphy would have been a much better investment and fit because they would allow Dwight to operate in the post on the offensive end and still handle their own on the glass defensively.

 

Even if one argues that Rashard can use his speed to beat bigger forwards off the dribble then it still wouldn't matter for two reasons: Rashard hardly ever takes ANYONE off the dribble, and can hardly finish when he gets there. He excels at two things; posting up and shooting threes. One of which is basically negated by moving him to power forward and the other isn't enough to cover the other holes in his game (Lack of rebounding, defense ETC).

 

 

The Second element necessary for the system to work is a guy who can get to the rim at will and also draw fouls in crunch time. Dwight can't be our go to guy because he's not that adept offensively and he is also a poor free throw shooter.

 

Therefore this has to come from the wing or point guard position. Vince was brought in to be that guy, but for whatever reason (age, injury ETC), he didn't do that with consistency this year. Hence we lost. Balance is key, if you look at the lakers they can play our stlye or they can play traditional. They have no weakness than maybe at point guard.

 

Three years ago a line up of: Dwight, Okur or Murphy, Pietrus, Vince, Jameer and Hedo off the bench would have had a better chance of winning a championship than the line up we have now.

[gAmE.oVe|2 0]

our problem is not about the 4-1 scheme. obviously going to the ECF twice, winning an East Conference championship, and having a finals appearance have proven it is a successful scheme. What has been the problem with our team then? Poor free throw shooting and peaches forcing shots at the worst possible moments. This team has the potential to win it all. We need D12 to do better at the line cuz 50% FT shooting isnt going to cut it. Also, remember how Carter missed those FT's down the stretch against the Celtics? If we are going to replace any players this offseason they first have to be very consistent and "clutch" FT shooters. We are not that far away from a championship. So get out of your heads that we need to change our style. We have to adjust to the "hack a howard" and make his asset into a threat.

[BMP 424]

[Captain Hindsight 50]

quote:

Originally posted by ButterMilkPancakes:

 

he's so dreamy

 

[barnettej 263]

quote:

Originally posted by echo4papa:

 

That is an absolutely horrible comparison, and, quite frankly, I'm embarrassed for you.

 

 

No need to be embarrassed for me Echo, you see things with stats... sort of like a developer in the IT world... you like to stay in the weeds...

 

I look at the whole picture for what it is with and without stats, dpending on the occasion.

 

The Suns is the most comparable team to the Orlando Magic in terms of players, offense, how they space themselves on the 3-line with Amare playing the role of Dwight Howard at times.

 

They have both tasted great success in shooting the 3, and both tasted defeat when the 3 wasnt dropping for them.

 

Again... your opinion on my opinion being wrong is fruitless.

 

Back to the real topic...

 

Adding in a conventional offense... in addition to keeping the 1-4 offense (or semi version of it) is what is going to help us get over the top.

 

I like the idea of switching thse two offenses seamlessly during the game. But its really up to the players to execute... that in itself is already a topic.

[BMP 424]

quote:

Originally posted by barnettej:

quote:

Originally posted by echo4papa:

 

That is an absolutely horrible comparison, and, quite frankly, I'm embarrassed for you.

 

 

No need to be embarrassed for me Echo, you see things with stats... sort of like a developer in the IT world... you like to stay in the weeds...

 

I look at the whole picture for what it is with and without stats, dpending on the occasion.

 

The Suns is the most comparable team to the Orlando Magic in terms of players, offense, how they space themselves on the 3-line with Amare playing the role of Dwight Howard at times.

 

They have both tasted great success in shooting the 3, and both tasted defeat when the 3 wasnt dropping for them.

 

Again... your opinion on my opinion being wrong is fruitless.

 

Back to the real topic...

 

Adding in a conventional offense... in addition to keeping the 1-4 offense (or semi version of it) is what is going to help us get over the top.

 

I like the idea of switching thse two offenses seamlessly during the game. But its really up to the players to execute... that in itself is already a topic.

 

Seriously, the Suns are nothing like the Magic. They're a run and gun team. The Magic do not run the break. The biggest problem with the Suns this year (and every year, really) was defense, not "dying by the 3". They got hammered by the Lakers' length, and their defense wasn't good enough to hang with them.

 

 

 

Seriously, I don't understand how you can even make that comparison. The Magic are much closer to the 95 and 96 Rockets than the current Suns. ****, the Magic play with a stretch four for almost the entire game, where even the Suns have Lopez at the 5 for at least 15 minutes every game.

 

 

Just because two teams stretch the floor with a PF/C going out to the 3pt line, it doesn't mean they're extremely similar.