If V.C. doesn't start jelling w/ starters J.J. to start(pg. 9, PSP)

[Darthmagic 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

quote:

Originally posted by Darthmagic:

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

quote:

Originally posted by Darthmagic:

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

Matt bonner and Duncan haven't been to the finals.

 

Horry came off the bench in SA.

 

Plus, theres no Duncan on this team.

 

I do agree we need a playmaker but theres none on this team. VC as good as his career numbers are, has never been on the level that Kobe plays on and at this rate, hes regressing so fast hes breaking sound barriers. Plus his low tolerance of pain. Sorry VC will never = to Kobe.

 

This team is what it is.

 

I don't understand your point here. You argued about the role of a role playing big. I showed that role playing bigs don't all have the same role. Bonner and Horry show that role playing bigs don't all have to do the same thing.

 

Point is, you bring up Matt Bonner. How many rings does he have being that role player for Duncan and co.? None.

 

Horry came off the bench. I think at this point in his career, so should Lewis or go elsewhere. His defense and his inconsistencies are hurting more then helping.

 

Theres no Duncan on this team. Thats self explanatory. Dwight is not Duncan. Dwight is good a better athlete and rebounder but lacks Duncan's IQ.

 

As far as the kobe point, that was to the person who said we we're like the Laker team of the 90's. No we aren't. Shaq was way more dominate. Kobe was/always will be on a higher level then Carter offensively and most imporantly defensively (which what wins the rings).

 

You are confusing too different arguments. I didn't say Matt Bonner won rings or anything like that. As a matter of fact i put Nazr Muhammad as my role playing big. My counter argument was against you saying what role playing bigs do. I said they have a specific role depending on what the team needs. they don't all have to rebound, block shots and defends. Dwight is an inside force that does all that. He does not need a player next to him who does the same things. Its about balance. Rashard stretches the floor for Dwight. Hence he is a role playing big. If you want to debate his effectiveness that is another argument. and i would prefer to have Ryan in the SL instead of Rashard.

 

Well thats what I'm arguing. His effectiveness. Bonner is a slightly better defender because hes always played a big mans game. They need a better 4 which is why since hes been there, they haven't won a ring. Of course thats not the only thing but its one of them.

 

I'll also disagree with your opinion that our role playing big doesn't need to rebound and block shots and defend. Let me remind you our own good 90's team with Shaq and Horace. Ho wasn't a 3 point shooter but anything inside the 3 point line he could hit which gives you a good stretch. Defensively however, is where his effectiveness came and it was the main reason why we went to the finals. His impact was immediate as quick as his first game with the Magic. At this point in Shard's career and I'm not saying Ryan Anderson is anywhere near defensively as Horace, hes a better rebounder, better at boxing out, better at putting a body on his man and he knows how to play a big mans game. Remember, Shard is a 3 turned into a 4. Bonner, Horry, Anderson, Horace, etc, never were 3's turned into 4's. They knew the big mans game and knew how to think like a big man.

 

Understood, but to be fair to Shard his mismatches on offense is what got us through the playoffs. It isn't working as well this year because of the lack of a play maker, so his defensive bloodletting is not nearly as tolerable. In addition, he played excellent defense on Chris Bosh in the play offs a couple years ago. As i said i really want the Rashard era in Orlando to end. I just think Ryan gives us the same mismatch offensively, but so much more on the other end of the floor. Shard can still help a team, but i don't think we need him here anymore. He'd be great in Houston

[Magicman28 295]

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

I think drawing comparisons like you guys are doing is not productive. Like saying, "Horry came off the bench and Lewis is like him if we make this comparison, so Lewis should come off the bench..." Thats not going to get you far.

 

Every team - in the history of this league - has different players with different skill sets, strengths and weaknesses. We need to do what is right for us. I don't see how having Lewis come off the bench would do us any good.

 

Lewis and Horry were both stretch 4's, but you could probably list a handful of reasons how they are different.

 

Maybe we could learn from them, but ultimately we need to figure out what works best for this unique group.

 

 

Yeah but basketball isn't rocket science. Theres a reason why teams like the Lakers and the Spurs won rings without an all star at every team. The role players knew their roles. Lewis and VC imo, doesn't know theres not because they don't want to but because at their age, on the other side of 30, they know through experience. You can't expect VC at age 32 know how to play defense like Kobe does. You can't expect Lewis at age 30-31 to know how a big man is suppose to defend. Sure, they could get it all of a sudden but not likely. Shard I do think he can do better but if he continues to let PF's beat him around, then something needs to change. Right now you got a young guy in Anderson who I think is outplaying Lewis with more consistency on both ends of the court and has been since the beginning of the year. Remember when Anderson was starting?

[FloridianaJones 8]

Our problem right now to me is simple... this team is not maintaining concentration for a game length. It can become infectious throughout the team as the game goes on.

 

People forget about the sports phenomenon we call the championship "hangover". It happens literally in every team sport and if you've experienced it you know what it is. (there are exceptions)

 

I really think we are experiencing the brunt of that right now. We need to realize that and get over it.

[Magicman28 295]

quote:

Originally posted by Darthmagic:

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

quote:

Originally posted by Darthmagic:

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

quote:

Originally posted by Darthmagic:

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

Matt bonner and Duncan haven't been to the finals.

 

Horry came off the bench in SA.

 

Plus, theres no Duncan on this team.

 

I do agree we need a playmaker but theres none on this team. VC as good as his career numbers are, has never been on the level that Kobe plays on and at this rate, hes regressing so fast hes breaking sound barriers. Plus his low tolerance of pain. Sorry VC will never = to Kobe.

 

This team is what it is.

 

I don't understand your point here. You argued about the role of a role playing big. I showed that role playing bigs don't all have the same role. Bonner and Horry show that role playing bigs don't all have to do the same thing.

 

Point is, you bring up Matt Bonner. How many rings does he have being that role player for Duncan and co.? None.

 

Horry came off the bench. I think at this point in his career, so should Lewis or go elsewhere. His defense and his inconsistencies are hurting more then helping.

 

Theres no Duncan on this team. Thats self explanatory. Dwight is not Duncan. Dwight is good a better athlete and rebounder but lacks Duncan's IQ.

 

As far as the kobe point, that was to the person who said we we're like the Laker team of the 90's. No we aren't. Shaq was way more dominate. Kobe was/always will be on a higher level then Carter offensively and most imporantly defensively (which what wins the rings).

 

You are confusing too different arguments. I didn't say Matt Bonner won rings or anything like that. As a matter of fact i put Nazr Muhammad as my role playing big. My counter argument was against you saying what role playing bigs do. I said they have a specific role depending on what the team needs. they don't all have to rebound, block shots and defends. Dwight is an inside force that does all that. He does not need a player next to him who does the same things. Its about balance. Rashard stretches the floor for Dwight. Hence he is a role playing big. If you want to debate his effectiveness that is another argument. and i would prefer to have Ryan in the SL instead of Rashard.

 

Well thats what I'm arguing. His effectiveness. Bonner is a slightly better defender because hes always played a big mans game. They need a better 4 which is why since hes been there, they haven't won a ring. Of course thats not the only thing but its one of them.

 

I'll also disagree with your opinion that our role playing big doesn't need to rebound and block shots and defend. Let me remind you our own good 90's team with Shaq and Horace. Ho wasn't a 3 point shooter but anything inside the 3 point line he could hit which gives you a good stretch. Defensively however, is where his effectiveness came and it was the main reason why we went to the finals. His impact was immediate as quick as his first game with the Magic. At this point in Shard's career and I'm not saying Ryan Anderson is anywhere near defensively as Horace, hes a better rebounder, better at boxing out, better at putting a body on his man and he knows how to play a big mans game. Remember, Shard is a 3 turned into a 4. Bonner, Horry, Anderson, Horace, etc, never were 3's turned into 4's. They knew the big mans game and knew how to think like a big man.

 

Understood, but to be fair to Shard his mismatches on offense is what got us through the playoffs. It isn't working as well this year because of the lack of a play maker, so his defensive bloodletting is not nearly as tolerable. In addition, he played excellent defense on Chris Bosh in the play offs a couple years ago. As i said i really want the Rashard era in Orlando to end. I just think Ryan gives us the same mismatch offensively, but so much more on the other end of the floor. Shard can still help a team, but i don't think we need him here anymore. He'd be great in Houston

 

Well yeah offensively but defense is what wins the rings and when shots aren't falling, defense is whats gonna win the game for you.

 

Well, unfortunately, I don't see Houston taking him because they want younger talent and its getting to the point to this team that the younger talent is the talent we need to go to the finals again. Plus we have no draft picks thats worth their while. I think we got him until his contract is expiring.

[FloridianaJones 8]

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

I think drawing comparisons like you guys are doing is not productive. Like saying, "Horry came off the bench and Lewis is like him if we make this comparison, so Lewis should come off the bench..." Thats not going to get you far.

 

Every team - in the history of this league - has different players with different skill sets, strengths and weaknesses. We need to do what is right for us. I don't see how having Lewis come off the bench would do us any good.

 

Lewis and Horry were both stretch 4's, but you could probably list a handful of reasons how they are different.

 

Maybe we could learn from them, but ultimately we need to figure out what works best for this unique group.

 

 

Yeah but basketball isn't rocket science. Theres a reason why teams like the Lakers and the Spurs won rings without an all star at every team. The role players knew their roles. Lewis and VC imo, doesn't know theres not because they don't want to but because at their age, on the other side of 30, they know through experience. You can't expect VC at age 32 know how to play defense like Kobe does. You can't expect Lewis at age 30-31 to know how a big man is suppose to defend. Sure, they could get it all of a sudden but not likely. Shard I do think he can do better but if he continues to let PF's beat him around, then something needs to change. Right now you got a young guy in Anderson who I think is outplaying Lewis with more consistency on both ends of the court and has been since the beginning of the year. Remember when Anderson was starting?

 

I think Lewis knew is role perfectly when contributed to us getting to the finals last year and played it greatly. VC is a different story, he is new to our rotation and his abilities coupled with our achievements last year put huge expectations on his shoulder that he hasn't been able to live up to.

 

Again, Lewis is playing shaky now, but don't forget what he did and is capable of. He, like the rest of the team is going through a mental slump. Which contrary to what people seem to think around here, is temporary and very common even for professional athletes. (especially ones who came off a championship loss, which I noted in my last post).

 

I loved the Lakers and Spurs who won championships. I think you don't make specific personnel decisions based on what they did. I think you make changes in your style of play or take some things they did well and apply them.

 

We ultimately don't have Greg Pop or Phil Jackson as our coach, so we need to do what is best for SVG and our group of players.

[Magicman28 295]

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

Our problem right now to me is simple... this team is not maintaining concentration for a game length. It can become infectious throughout the team as the game goes on.

 

People forget about the sports phenomenon we call the championship "hangover". It happens literally in every team sport and if you've experienced it you know what it is. (there are exceptions)

 

I really think we are experiencing the brunt of that right now. We need to realize that and get over it.

 

 

Sorry but that doesn't work with me. I've been following basketball when MJ was in his prime. When Spurs won back to backs and so did Houston. I was following it before all that as well. Also, we didn't win the championship. I mean we could be end up like the Mavs and the Jazz. Getting there year after year with to no avail. I don't want that. I want to actually win the **** thing.

 

Its not just concentration but lack of skills and strengths in certain areas that are needed to win.

[FloridianaJones 8]

I completely agree with you about role players. Your spot on with that.

 

Thats why I don't understand people saying we need Granger or even Butler (whom im back and forth on). I dream instead this team brings in the best role player in the league right now in Shane Battier (I guy who I still think we could get for Gortat). He contributes efficiently on offense and plays the most consistent and high IQ backcourt D this league has to offer.

[Magicman28 295]

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

I think drawing comparisons like you guys are doing is not productive. Like saying, "Horry came off the bench and Lewis is like him if we make this comparison, so Lewis should come off the bench..." Thats not going to get you far.

 

Every team - in the history of this league - has different players with different skill sets, strengths and weaknesses. We need to do what is right for us. I don't see how having Lewis come off the bench would do us any good.

 

Lewis and Horry were both stretch 4's, but you could probably list a handful of reasons how they are different.

 

Maybe we could learn from them, but ultimately we need to figure out what works best for this unique group.

 

 

Yeah but basketball isn't rocket science. Theres a reason why teams like the Lakers and the Spurs won rings without an all star at every team. The role players knew their roles. Lewis and VC imo, doesn't know theres not because they don't want to but because at their age, on the other side of 30, they know through experience. You can't expect VC at age 32 know how to play defense like Kobe does. You can't expect Lewis at age 30-31 to know how a big man is suppose to defend. Sure, they could get it all of a sudden but not likely. Shard I do think he can do better but if he continues to let PF's beat him around, then something needs to change. Right now you got a young guy in Anderson who I think is outplaying Lewis with more consistency on both ends of the court and has been since the beginning of the year. Remember when Anderson was starting?

 

I think Lewis knew is role perfectly when contributed to us getting to the finals last year and played it greatly. VC is a different story, he is new to our rotation and his abilities coupled with our achievements last year put huge expectations on his shoulder that he hasn't been able to live up to.

 

Again, Lewis is playing shaky now, but don't forget what he did and is capable of. He, like the rest of the team is going through a mental slump. Which contrary to what people seem to think around here, is temporary and very common even for professional athletes. (especially ones who came off a championship loss, which I noted in my last post).

 

I loved the Lakers and Spurs who won championships. I think you don't make specific personnel decisions based on what they did. I think you make changes in your style of play or take some things they did well and apply them.

 

We ultimately don't have Greg Pop or Phil Jackson as our coach, so we need to do what is best for SVG and our group of players.

 

Yeah but at Carter's and Lewis's age, do you really feel like you can still apply them? Thats what I doubt. I'm sure the question is constantly being applied to them through SVG in practice but eventually, you either have to do it or deal with the fact that player will never apply that to their games and they only revert back to what they know.

[FloridianaJones 8]

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

Our problem right now to me is simple... this team is not maintaining concentration for a game length. It can become infectious throughout the team as the game goes on.

 

People forget about the sports phenomenon we call the championship "hangover". It happens literally in every team sport and if you've experienced it you know what it is. (there are exceptions)

 

I really think we are experiencing the brunt of that right now. We need to realize that and get over it.

 

 

Sorry but that doesn't work with me. I've been following basketball when MJ was in his prime. When Spurs won back to backs and so did Houston. I was following it before all that as well. Also, we didn't win the championship. I mean we could be end up like the Mavs and the Jazz. Getting there year after year with to no avail. I don't want that. I want to actually win the **** thing.

 

Its not just concentration but lack of skills and strengths in certain areas that are needed to win.

 

I don't either, I think thats why Otis made large changes is replacing Hedo with Vince and bringing in those other guys. That is not like the Mavs or the Jazz who sat on what they had and just tried again.

 

Vince hasn't worked so far, but we aren't even half way with the season yet. Not to mention new arena next year (the success statistics are surprising with sports and new facilities) and no big players going anywhere. I'm not too worried.

[Sir Raven 12]

quote:

Originally posted by ThuglifeJ:

I hope VC knows this is going on.

It'll motivate him.

 

and I'm kinda upset SVG is already doing this after one game where we played well. Yet despite the 4 game slide VC was one of the only players who wouuld show up. And your leading scorer cant be your 6th man

 

 

that being said, VC as 6th man might not be so terrible if he gets 30+ minutes. Think about it.

 

He can just do what he's done hiw whole career, be the man, surrounded by role players. Not star players, but Morris Petersons and whoever else is on the bench when he comes in. And hten he can just do whatever he wants and score at will like he's used to.

 

 

but really if we want a championship we need a go to guy in our starting lineup...We should keep getting him used to the Magic system until VC is VC again. Otherwise we're just stalling.

Like Manu...

[Magicman28 295]

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

I completely agree with you about role players. Your spot on with that.

 

Thats why I don't understand people saying we need Granger or even Butler (whom im back and forth on). I dream instead this team brings in the best role player in the league right now in Shane Battier (I guy who I still think we could get for Gortat). He contributes efficiently on offense and plays the most consistent and high IQ backcourt D this league has to offer.

 

Battier is great but I think adding him would be overkill. Butler too. This team is fine with Barnes for now. Barnes has been consistent on both ends of the floor.

 

Where it needs to come from is Jameer, VC if he stays as a starter and Lewis. Dwight too but hes still young you know? Its the older experienced guys that need to really know their roles and I think especially with VC and Lewis, they will never be able to fill that role rightfully. I could be and probably will be wrong but I just don't see Shard and VC turning into defensive players that championship teams have.

 

Imo, those are the 2 significant improvements we need to make if not. The SG and PF spot and it needs to be not only based on talent but defensively as well. This is of course if status quo doesn't work out. Which is what I predict.

[FloridianaJones 8]

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

quote:

Originally posted by Magicman28:

quote:

Originally posted by FloridianaJones:

I think drawing comparisons like you guys are doing is not productive. Like saying, "Horry came off the bench and Lewis is like him if we make this comparison, so Lewis should come off the bench..." Thats not going to get you far.

 

Every team - in the history of this league - has different players with different skill sets, strengths and weaknesses. We need to do what is right for us. I don't see how having Lewis come off the bench would do us any good.

 

Lewis and Horry were both stretch 4's, but you could probably list a handful of reasons how they are different.

 

Maybe we could learn from them, but ultimately we need to figure out what works best for this unique group.

 

 

Yeah but basketball isn't rocket science. Theres a reason why teams like the Lakers and the Spurs won rings without an all star at every team. The role players knew their roles. Lewis and VC imo, doesn't know theres not because they don't want to but because at their age, on the other side of 30, they know through experience. You can't expect VC at age 32 know how to play defense like Kobe does. You can't expect Lewis at age 30-31 to know how a big man is suppose to defend. Sure, they could get it all of a sudden but not likely. Shard I do think he can do better but if he continues to let PF's beat him around, then something needs to change. Right now you got a young guy in Anderson who I think is outplaying Lewis with more consistency on both ends of the court and has been since the beginning of the year. Remember when Anderson was starting?

 

I think Lewis knew is role perfectly when contributed to us getting to the finals last year and played it greatly. VC is a different story, he is new to our rotation and his abilities coupled with our achievements last year put huge expectations on his shoulder that he hasn't been able to live up to.

 

Again, Lewis is playing shaky now, but don't forget what he did and is capable of. He, like the rest of the team is going through a mental slump. Which contrary to what people seem to think around here, is temporary and very common even for professional athletes. (especially ones who came off a championship loss, which I noted in my last post).

 

I loved the Lakers and Spurs who won championships. I think you don't make specific personnel decisions based on what they did. I think you make changes in your style of play or take some things they did well and apply them.

 

We ultimately don't have Greg Pop or Phil Jackson as our coach, so we need to do what is best for SVG and our group of players.

 

Yeah but at Carter's and Lewis's age, do you really feel like you can still apply them? Thats what I doubt. I'm sure the question is constantly being applied to them through SVG in practice but eventually, you either have to do it or deal with the fact that player will never apply that to their games and they only revert back to what they know.

 

I don't think its ever too late. Hedo was 29 when he won MIP... just one example. It does take work to undo a bad habit, but it can be done, at any age, with an amount of years of experience. I still believe in Vince even after all his inconsistencies. The good things/moments we've seen out him this year have been great.