Delusional Cav fans happy with VC trade...

[New Guy 11]

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Originally posted by Kramer:

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Originally posted by New Guy:

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Originally posted by Kramer:

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Originally posted by New Guy:

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Originally posted by Kramer:

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Originally posted by New Guy:

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Originally posted by Kramer:

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Originally posted by Da_Coach:

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Originally posted by New Guy:

Havent read everything here but, I dont see a problem w/ Cavs fans being happy about it to a point. Hedo and Rashard were matchup nightmares. With us going conventional...that for sure gives them a better chance to win. You completely change what makes us so dangerous in the first place and you may become suceptible to what makes the Cavs so good. And I'd agree that it would be easier for West, a great defender, to guard VC instead of Hedo. Hedo towers over West. And one of West's strengths is shutting down the VC esque guard. Asking West to guard a 6'10 SF was a little much. This is completely different. Yeah, it's fine to be excited to have Carter and all but, there is also a chance this may not work. This brings us down to everyone elses level from a conventional lineup standup point. Still extremely tealnted but, we were so dangerous because of the matchups we had, we dont have those anymore. We'll have your standard PG, SG, SF, PF, C lineup and that plays into the Cavs hand. We had their number and talented or not, that may not be the case anymore. The C's were more talented but, the Cavs matchup well against them. And now they'll matchup a little bit better against us. Essentially, Otis is building to beat L.A.! but, changing our dynamic could certainly be dangerous. Just ask the Pistons. This team was in the Finals...a complete make over wasnt need but, by going conventional w/ potentially a true PF is just that.

 

My points exactly, we didn't need to blow up our team, we were held back by SVG's mismanagement of egos not a lack of the proper personnel. Rafer and battie ok, but definately not turk, lee and probably gortat. More conventional, is easier to deal with. Lets hope this experiment works out.

 

Do you know why things become conventional? Because they work! The experiment was the two small forward tandem and while it was pretty successful, it still wouldn't stand much of a chance against a healthy Spurs or Lakers squad.

 

It wasn't pretty successful...it was very successful. A few things go our way and maybe we win it all. It could have been 2-2 just as easily as it went to 3-1. We blew that. Were we fighting a bit of an uphill battle at times? Yes, but adding a true PF via FA in 2010 as a bench player certainly could have eased the pain of the Gasol mismatch. Which was too much to overcome as times. I def. think Otis gave up on something special too early. Teams are beginning to really like that 2 SFs style as well and are beginning to emulate it. OKC, an up and coming team, does the same w/ Durant and Green. And I'd expect after the year we just had running with that type of lineup that it will continue to grow in popularity, in time. Otis seems poised to build to beat the Lakers but in turn, that could be a problem when you take away what made us so difficult for the Cavs. The Cavs, who will match up much, much better against our conventional lineup. It's a gamble and one that may not pay off. I also think it's premature to do so after the near championship season we just had.

 

I don't like our chances to stretch a series to 6 against a healthy Celtics team. I don't like our chances to make it a 5 game series against a healthy San Antonio now. We just lost to the Lakers in 5. Basically resigning Hedo means that we are stuck with the same core guys who just lost in 5. And your OKC example is an awfully poor one compared to examples I have read in other posts by you. First off OKC was awful last season and Green isn't a small forward, he is a perimeter orientated power forward, maybe a combo. Young from Philly is likely going to become the norm. An atheletic perimeter guy who competes down low and rebounds. Rashard Lewis used to be the former and never was or will be the latter

 

Jeff Green's best postion is by far SF. And I wasnt talking about how good they were...I was making the point that teams like the idea of going with such a lineup. That team is too green to be any good right now. And will continue to struggle anyway until Westbrook could get over his turnover woes and shoot at a better clip. But the future is mighty bright...especially with their additions of Harden and Mullens. The perfect draft for them. But anyway...Nelson wasn't playing anything like himself. He was awful and didnt even beling on the court...it was a bad idea from the get go. And a tough PF off the bench to play extended minutes on Gasol could have done wonders...assuming he could slow him of course. But still. We made it to the finals much earlier than expected, you could only expect the team to get better. And seriously, same starting 5 for us or not. Nelson's healthy, Lee's getting better, and Howard's getting better. It could be a whole new ball game. Teams do get better without adding major pieces you know or changing everything. It does happen. And with such a young team, it's expected.

 

That whole Durant-Green wing combo failed miserably. I'd like some evidence that he is, right now, anywhere near as effective at the three as he is at the four

 

They failed miserably? They are a fantastic duo. One that they're building the team around. The team wasthe youngest in the league (I think), what do you expect from them record wise? come on. Those two work off eachother fantastically. And Green is an ever improving player, who's three ball has become a great strength of his.

 

As for Green, the SF. It's his first position. He also started off their in OKC initially, as they tried to work Durant in at SG. A failed experiment because, of Durant's awkward size and body for the 2. He couldnt guard smaller guards at all. Hence why, they went to a Magic esque style of play, with Green moving to the 4. And as for those two players...it has worked out beautifully. The same cant be said for the rest of the team, though. But of course, success will take time but, it will come. They're two of the most promising young players in the game.

 

Wait so you disagree with me in the first chunk and then explain why I was right in the second. Sorry for my time saving typing but to a lot of people "wings" are shooting guards and small forwards. A power forward and center are usually called "bigs" and point guards are usually called just that.

 

And granted Kevin Durant struggled because he is just the wrong size to play shooting guard but as I recal Jeff Green was attrocious while that experiment was going on. Some of that could be attributed to Durant being out of position but at some point if your a better 3 than 4, you can show some signs of it

 

The team was bad, this is true but, those two did anything but fail, is what I was saying. They werent the reason why the team was so bad. And Green is a SF on any conventional roster his game is best suited to play SF...but, he does a fine job working the 4 on OKC.

 

And why would you talk about them as a wing combo (as in SG/SF) to begin our conversation then? Considering they play SF and PF? That doesnt make any sense because, I was comparing there set up as SF/SF at SF/PF, just like us.

[magicfan83 23]

Here's the thing, getting rid of Hedo doesn't mean that we can't still go small. A lineup of Jameer/Vince/Pietrus/Lewis/Howard will probably see significant time. Or we could put JJ at 2 and Vince at 3.

 

Getting Wallace at the 4 STILL creates matchup issues of a different form. Guys like Varejao and Smith have no chance of guarding Sheed on the block. If the Cavs try to put West on Lewis like they did with Hedo, then Lewis will absolutely DESTROY him in the post. If they put West on Carter, we just run the pick and roll so Carter can get a step just like we did with Hedo. The matchup problems still exist. And this time we have a guy who can get his own shot.

[New Guy 11]

As great a fit Wallace would be in what Otis is trying to do here...he's also a declining player who Pistons fans have been hollering to get rid of for a while now. Yeah, that's not something you hear a whole lot about in all these get Wallace threads. I still think he would do a fine job, personally...as long as his skills havent diminished significantly. While it isnt seen in his production...he's been having to work a lot harder for things that came easy for him just a few years ago. And he's extremely close to calling it a career. In just May he said if he didnt get $8 million this off season, he was going to retire. Now, he's obviously backed off of that because, he'll get the full MLE or a little more elsewhere but still, not really what you want to hear. Just wanted to make note of the fact that Pistons fans didnt even want him anymore and this has been for the last two years.

 

But anyway, of course we could go small. But the same mismatches arent there. 5'11 Nelson running the show in this lineup compared to Hedo, isnt comparable. At times they needed to put a wing on the 6'10 point forward. Taking a lengthier defender out of the picture, essentially. Wont be the case when Nelson is running this. Like it or not...Hedo is a better ball handler/passer than Carter. And when it comes to the Cavs. Our previous lineup matches up a lot better.

[magicfan83 23]

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Originally posted by New Guy:

As great a fit Wallace would be in what Otis is trying to do here...he's also a declining player who Pistons fans have been hollering to get rid of for a while now. Yeah, that's not something you hear a whole lot about in all these get Wallace threads. I still think he would do a fine job, personally...as long as his skills havent diminished significantly. While it isnt seen in his production...he's been having to work a lot harder for things that came easy for him just a few years ago. And he's extremely close to calling it a career. In just May he said if he didnt get $8 million this off season, he was going to retire. Now, he's obviously backed off of that because, he'll get the full MLE or a little more elsewhere but still, not really what you want to hear. Just wanted to make note of the fact that Pistons fans didnt even want him anymore and this has been for the last two years.

 

But anyway, of course we could go small. But the same mismatches arent there. 5'11 Nelson running the show in this lineup compared to Hedo, isnt comparable. At times they needed to put a wing on the 6'10 point forward. Taking a lengthier defender out of the picture, essentially. Wont be the case when Nelson is running this. Like it or not...Hedo is a better ball handler/passer than Carter. And when it comes to the Cavs. Our previous lineup matches up a lot better.

 

That would imply that Turk actually has an advantage over smaller players. He doesn't, really. It means he can get a step back 3. His post game is awful. Watching him attempt to post up West was like watching Keith Bogans attempt to drive, you just knew something bad would happen.

 

If you really think Turk runs the offense better than Nelson (pre-injury) then I suggest you go watch the first half of the season again. Nelson was shooting nearly 10% better both from the field and from 3 point land, averaged more assists and less turnovers. Oh, and we had the best record in the league at several points before he went down.

 

It's true that no one really knows what we'll get out of Sheed. But he should be motivated being on a contender. He should also be able to help Dwight's post game. And if he isn't all that productive, thats why you have a 21 year old PF that shot nearly 39% from 3 and averaged 5 rebounds per game in only 19 minutes. Oh, and then there is Lewis for spot minutes if necessary or matchups dictate.

[New Guy 11]

I'd probably rather have Bass to be honest. He needs to refine his offensive game a bit, though. But the potential is there. I've always been a fan of his.

 

As for Anderson...he plays like a big SF. Like a Pat Garrity or Troy Murphy. They're looking at Bass and Wallace...very physical players...so, that's the type they want to get the bulk of minutes to compliment Dwight. Anderson is far from that true or truer type PF they are looking for.

 

Now dont get me wrong in regard to Jameer. I know how well he was doing, he was fantastic. But, I'm talking specifically about when Hedo was running things. You'd see completely different types of defenses. With several differet positions coming off to try and guard Hedo. Opening up the floor. Jameer could do a fine job but, in losing Hedo, we're losing one of our best lineups, which was very successful.

 

People seem to think VC will be running a greal deal of PG or something. That's not his game at all. These days he's becoming more spot up shooter than anything. Lots more threes and long jumpers as he has aged.

[magicfan83 23]

We are going to do things a little differently. We'll see Nelson handling the ball more. We'll see more of Lewis in the post against smaller 3s where he is unbelievably effective. We'll give Dwight the ball some more as he has an entire summer to improve. And Vince will run some pick and roll.

 

Vince is NOT a catch and shoot player. Not even close. In the history of the league there has never been a catch and shoot player that averaged 20 points and 5 assists. He will not run PG. But the one thing you are really forgetting is that this is the first time Carter has been on a team where he is not THE guy offensively. He could be 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th option depending on matchups. He is going to enjoy more space to work with because defenses can't key in on him like they have for the better part of a decade.

[AcuWill 45]

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Originally posted by New Guy:

I'd probably rather have Bass to be honest. He needs to refine his offensive game a bit, though. But the potential is there. I've always been a fan of his.

 

As for Anderson...he plays like a big SF. Like a Pat Garrity or Troy Murphy. They're looking at Bass and Wallace...very physical players...so, that's the type they want to get the bulk of minutes to compliment Dwight. Anderson is far from that true or truer type PF they are looking for.

 

Now dont get me wrong in regard to Jameer. I know how well he was doing, he was fantastic. But, I'm talking specifically about when Hedo was running things. You'd see completely different types of defenses. With several differet positions coming off to try and guard Hedo. Opening up the floor. Jameer could do a fine job but, in losing Hedo, we're losing one of our best lineups, which was very successful.

 

People seem to think VC will be running a greal deal of PG or something. That's not his game at all. These days he's becoming more spot up shooter than anything. Lots more threes and long jumpers as he has aged.

You con't deem to understand how the Magic offense runs.

 

The PG or any other player does not run the offense as if they were Jason Kidd or Steve Nash. It is predicated on getting double teams or pick and roll and swinging the ball around to get open shots. VC's ability to get open and force defenses to collapse will allow him to make a simple pass to a quasi-open player and then they will hockey assist it to the player who will end up taking th shot. The offense will run very nicely (althuogh you might still be able to come later and piss and moan about VC's assist numbers.)

[NittanyBuc 757]

some things people forget:

 

1)KG is coming off major knee surgery. At his age, I don't expect him to be the same

 

2) Carter is WAAAAAAY more athletic than Turk, not to mention a lot thicker at 6'6, 220 lbs. He will play much stronger and harder than Turk ever did. Put it this way, when Hedo drives, throws the ball, puts his head down and screams, Vince will probably dunk or actually make the layup.

 

3) Our matchup last year was our size and inside-outside game, BUT this year, we could still do the samething, grabted that we bring in a sstarting PF. Then we still have the 6'10 SF, who is also more athletic than Turk and a lot more of a mismatch IMO.PLus, Vince will get more boards than Hedo

 

4) Our lineup got sooooooooo much more athletic and potent wih this trade. Now we have a true closer in tight situations.

 

5) Hedo isn't necessarily gone. There's still that shot that we bring him back and if we do........all hell will break loose opening night

 

6) Like new guy says, West is a good perimter defender BUT, don't think a 220 lbs. VC won't body up or even post up a 180 lbs. West. Let's face it, West is a PG. He is undersized for the 2 spot and for those who think Lee is undersized, he hasn't put on weight yet and will get bigger and stronger. West has hit his peak.

 

7) We got a solid PF prospect out of this. I compare him yo Mehmet Okur- a big forward with a sweet stroke from beyond the arc. BUT let's not limit this guy to what he can do. With our training staff, he will be bulked up by next year. He's the only guy we have thats a legeit offensive post threat

[ClubMed 0]

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Originally posted by chosen12:

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Originally posted by ThisIsTheYear:

I don't think some realize we actually got younger in this trade. Vince is younger than both of the veterans (Battie, Alston) and Anderson is a couple of years younger than Lee.

 

It's simply rare for a team to get younger AND better in a single trade.

 

 

 

whoaaaaaaaa!!!!! Match, set and point.....I for one did not realize this at all!! Great point!!

 

if you are referring to tennis, point first then set then match.

[TreyTime 3]

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Originally posted by ClubMed:

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Originally posted by chosen12:

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Originally posted by ThisIsTheYear:

I don't think some realize we actually got younger in this trade. Vince is younger than both of the veterans (Battie, Alston) and Anderson is a couple of years younger than Lee.

 

It's simply rare for a team to get younger AND better in a single trade.

 

 

 

whoaaaaaaaa!!!!! Match, set and point.....I for one did not realize this at all!! Great point!!

 

if you are referring to tennis, point first then set then match.

 

Who cares, tennis sucks anyways.

[jec 427]

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Originally posted by TreyTime:

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Originally posted by ClubMed:

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Originally posted by chosen12:

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Originally posted by ThisIsTheYear:

I don't think some realize we actually got younger in this trade. Vince is younger than both of the veterans (Battie, Alston) and Anderson is a couple of years younger than Lee.

 

It's simply rare for a team to get younger AND better in a single trade.

 

 

 

whoaaaaaaaa!!!!! Match, set and point.....I for one did not realize this at all!! Great point!!

 

if you are referring to tennis, point first then set then match.

 

Who cares, tennis sucks anyways.

 

Not Mario Tennis.

[TreyTime 3]

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Originally posted by jecMagicMan:

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Originally posted by TreyTime:

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Originally posted by ClubMed:

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Originally posted by chosen12:

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Originally posted by ThisIsTheYear:

I don't think some realize we actually got younger in this trade. Vince is younger than both of the veterans (Battie, Alston) and Anderson is a couple of years younger than Lee.

 

It's simply rare for a team to get younger AND better in a single trade.

 

 

 

whoaaaaaaaa!!!!! Match, set and point.....I for one did not realize this at all!! Great point!!

 

if you are referring to tennis, point first then set then match.

 

Who cares, tennis sucks anyways.

 

Not Mario Tennis.

 

I stand corrected.