Bogans back ahead of J.J.? Otis is scanning other teams rosters(Denton)

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

quote:

Originally posted by magicfreak#1:

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

quote:

Originally posted by truth393:

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

quote:

Originally posted by magicfreak#1:

just look at the stat column after the games JJ is playing "better" on the defensive side of the ball.

 

What basketball stat do you think demostrates that JJ is better defensively?

 

 

 

What basketball stat do you think demonstrates that he's noticeably quicker?

 

I tell you what Redick held his own against Wade the other night, and he averaging close to 2 steal a game.

 

a) He guarded him for 6 minutes, and by all accounts did adequately. I didn't see the game, so I won't pass judgement on that particular game.

 

B) In a cosmic sense, yes, .4 steals per game is close to 2. However, in terms of basketball stats, it's not all that close.

 

Yes, but still an improvement from the non stop abuse he suffered last season, would you not agree?

 

I've only seen the 2 Charlotte games; one via my computer, one in person. In those two games, he didn't look good, but he didn't look especially awful either. He was, in fact, mediocre. Run of the mill. Average. In terms of his defense, I'd still rank him dead last of the 4 shooting guards. But that doesn't mean he hasn't improved. If I was going to rate the 4 of theme for defense from 1-10 based on those two games, it would look something like.

 

Pietrus: 7.5

Bogans: 6 (6.5)

CLee: 5.5

JJ: 4 (2.5)

 

The numbers in parentheses are where I would've rated them last year. So yes, JJ has improved but it's important to note that whether or not that improvement is enough to warrant playing time is an entirely separate question.

[magicfreak#1 0]

quote:

Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery:

quote:

Originally posted by magicfreak#1:

Opposing player point total, Duh!!!, how bout + - stat, even blocked shots and steals, have improved from 0 - 1. Again I'm not saying JJ has put him self past the 4th best guard in the rotation, right now I have him 3, but thats not relevant to this discussion, I am just saying he does appear quicker when you watch him, and yes it is a proven fact human beings can increase their reaction time, and quickness: ability to accelerate to terminal velocity.

 

I wasn't arguing that he hasn't gotten quicker. The increase in quickness I've actually witnessed has been minimal, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. What I said was that there is no basketball stat that measures a player's quickness.

 

And the Lenovo stat is more or less useless when it isn't baselined and hasn't had time to balance out anomaly games, blocked shots and steals don't always reflect defensive acumen(for every Olajuwon and Payton, there's a Camby and Iverson) and since no one actually records Against stats in the preseason, all you have to judge that by are your own memories of events, and in the case of this board, I'd have to be 800x more generous than I am before I'd even say that the majority of this board is ONLY completely biased in favor of JJ.

 

I believe your question that I was responding to was " What basketball stat do you think demonstrates that JJ is better defensively."

 

And to be honest with you I wanted the Brewer kid instead of JJ, but now we have him and Yes I want to see him become a better defender, I am rooting for him, I have this vision of what could be if this guy could only play alittle defense, and I have to tell you it is pretty scary my friend, pretty scary.

[SmackDaddy 30]

quote:

Originally posted by TheRevTy:

Also, just because you can find results on the internet doesn't make it fact. I know. Shocking.

 

The fact of the matter is there is no way to definitively say whether quickness can be improved or not, because it is difficult to measure.

 

Actually, it's pretty easy to measure. Just speak to any athlete that wasn't blessed with superhuman athleticism that played at a high level. I can say definitively from personal experience that there are certainly areas like agility and quickness that can be improved upon by leaps and bounds through dedication to exercises that isolate movements and muscle groups.

 

Or, maybe this discussion can only be resolved by the Magic Strength & Conditioning coach making a statement on this website that will still no doubt be questioned by some.

[TheRevTy 6]

I guess I view quickness differently than some. Sure, speed can be increased. Reaction time I suppose could be increased with repetition. Strength obviously is pretty easy to measure an increase. To me, quickness is putting it all together. Being able to move with confidence and strength in a very rapid way. It is the difference between Randy Moss and Barry Sanders. Moss has flat out speed, strength, and some solid reaction times. Sanders had quickness, complete body control. In basketball, the best definition of a player thriving off of quickness is Iverson. Guy moves like a gnat. One second he's here, next he's there and you never saw him move. I just don't see how that can be measured adequately.

 

As for increasing quickness, I guess anything can be done with today's knowledge of muscles and training, but I highly doubt significant increases can be made.

 

Oh, and the 100 meter vs the 200 meter, I see what you are saying, but to me, that is just increasing reaction time and muscle memory of the action of snapping out of the blocks. It is an entirely different beast to react to a fluid situation like a help defender collapsing. It is the difference between skateboarding in a half pipe and surfing. In the half pipe, you can make your moves quicker based off of repetition and muscle memory, but in surfing, you have to increase your ability to predict what is going to happen and your appropriate reactions.

 

Does that make sense?

[Captain Hi-Top 791]

quote:

Originally posted by TheRevTy:

I guess I view quickness differently than some. Sure, speed can be increased. Reaction time I suppose could be increased with repetition. Strength obviously is pretty easy to measure an increase. To me, quickness is putting it all together. Being able to move with confidence and strength in a very rapid way. It is the difference between Randy Moss and Barry Sanders. Moss has flat out speed, strength, and some solid reaction times. Sanders had quickness, complete body control. In basketball, the best definition of a player thriving off of quickness is Iverson. Guy moves like a gnat. One second he's here, next he's there and you never saw him move. I just don't see how that can be measured adequately.

 

As for increasing quickness, I guess anything can be done with today's knowledge of muscles and training, but I highly doubt significant increases can be made.

 

Oh, and the 100 meter vs the 200 meter, I see what you are saying, but to me, that is just increasing reaction time and muscle memory of the action of snapping out of the blocks. It is an entirely different beast to react to a fluid situation like a help defender collapsing. It is the difference between skateboarding in a half pipe and surfing. In the half pipe, you can make your moves quicker based off of repetition and muscle memory, but in surfing, you have to increase your ability to predict what is going to happen and your appropriate reactions.

 

Does that make sense?

 

While I may not agree with your definition of 'quickness', it really doesn't matter.

 

Spped, reaction time, strength. These are key elements that you listed, and through training, each can be significantly increased, would you agree? "Putting it all together", therefore, by default, can also be increased. Though, I would argue that there are more elements, and that some of them are more mental than physical. Reaction times, understanding of the sport, assignments, ability to anticipate the next move, these are elements that delve into the mental role as well.

 

Also... the difference between speed, and quickness is called 'agility'. This is what Sanders had in spades, so does Iverson. Agility can also be increased through training, just ask NFL players who enroll in ballet.

[magicfreak#1 0]

quote:

Originally posted by TheRevTy:

I guess I view quickness differently than some. Sure, speed can be increased. Reaction time I suppose could be increased with repetition. Strength obviously is pretty easy to measure an increase. To me, quickness is putting it all together. Being able to move with confidence and strength in a very rapid way. It is the difference between Randy Moss and Barry Sanders. Moss has flat out speed, strength, and some solid reaction times. Sanders had quickness, complete body control. In basketball, the best definition of a player thriving off of quickness is Iverson. Guy moves like a gnat. One second he's here, next he's there and you never saw him move. I just don't see how that can be measured adequately.

 

As for increasing quickness, I guess anything can be done with today's knowledge of muscles and training, but I highly doubt significant increases can be made.

 

Oh, and the 100 meter vs the 200 meter, I see what you are saying, but to me, that is just increasing reaction time and muscle memory of the action of snapping out of the blocks. It is an entirely different beast to react to a fluid situation like a help defender collapsing. It is the difference between skateboarding in a half pipe and surfing. In the half pipe, you can make your moves quicker based off of repetition and muscle memory, but in surfing, you have to increase your ability to predict what is going to happen and your appropriate reactions.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Yes it makes sense, but you can increase your efficiency in surfing , and skateboarding, and in basketball too. If you define quickness as a conglomerate of reaction time, speed, and strength, and you can increase reaction time, strength and speed, then yes you can increase quickness by increasing its components.

 

"Fast Twitch muscles," come in a few different varieties, in the human, and work of of a different concept than muscle recruitment of slow twitch muscles, "strength."

 

Many personal trainers suggest dropping body fat to get quicker, and also prescribe isometric exercises to target muscle groups required for different movements.

 

As far as quickness being defined by me it will stay constant whether you are playing basketball, football, tag, or anything you have to move your feet to compete at. In boxing you might have a different quick as far as punch time, but again moving your feet to avoid, and reacting to movements of other will be the same. The ability to lessen the time it takes to push off the blocks in track, and practicing crossing over your pivot foot, and moving your feet in front of an opponent, are both actions that are very similar, and can be improved with conditioning of the muscles that effect those actions, and repetition, also enhancing your reaction time through repetition of those actions.

 

While I don't believe JJ is anywhere near to the quickness of Iverson, or even C Lee. I do believe he is in better shape, alot stronger, and definately quicker than last year.

 

In basketball even a 10th of a second, which seems miniscule, is a big improvement, and could and has decided who wins the championship.

 

You have to remember I am not saying that JJ is even fast, I am only responding to an absolute statement made that said I am a pro at this, and trust me it is NOT, possible, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! WROOOOOOONNNNNGGG!!!!!

[Penny Hardaway's Ghost 260]

wow...

[PNuT1423 0]

lol has anyone in here arguing for jj over a taller/faster person ever played a full court game of basketball? i think i'd want the kid who can outrun and outjump the other kids on the court on my team before i'd want the shooter, actually it should be a pretty easy pick. and here we go i'll get some kind of response of someone who went all the way to state at their high school or college or something but whatever. we can't trade the guy for anything, seriously not one thing, nobody really even wants him, if he gets traded by himself otis would have to pull out the best song and dance show ever, and i know all of us in here think we know a thing or two, but professional scouts are out there in the practices and at the games, and i don't know why, but i think i can put some trust in the professional scouts, obviously not our scouts, but real professional scouts from other good teams that know who and what someone is worth in the game of basketball.

 

we should seriously try to send him off to the bobcats, they have a team full of college all-stars that can't play in the nba, it's like the ncaa set up that team to reward college players for playing great ncaa ball.

[Penny Hardaway's Ghost 260]

what would the Magic gain by trading JJ for Morrison? aside from the obvious "depth" at the SF? arent these players really a wash? now Sean May would be an interesting bonus if he was grouped in such a trade, if healthy and not so fat he could be rather productive for us...I just dont see the + in a JJ for Ammo swap...plus, that dude would have to cut his hair and shave that "mustache" before wearing one of our jerseys...yuck.

[PNuT1423 0]

who said anything about morrison? i must have missed it, they wouldn't let either of those two for jj, it's more like the bobcats' second round pick for jj straight up unless we sent bogans back to charlotte again with him, i think that would be pretty funny.

[the anchovie 0]

quote:

Originally posted by cunningstunt:

lol has anyone in here arguing for jj over a taller/faster person ever played a full court game of basketball? i think i'd want the kid who can outrun and outjump the other kids on the court on my team before i'd want the shooter, actually it should be a pretty easy pick. and here we go i'll get some kind of response of someone who went all the way to state at their high school or college or something but whatever. we can't trade the guy for anything, seriously not one thing, nobody really even wants him, if he gets traded by himself otis would have to pull out the best song and dance show ever, and i know all of us in here think we know a thing or two, but professional scouts are out there in the practices and at the games, and i don't know why, but i think i can put some trust in the professional scouts, obviously not our scouts, but real professional scouts from other good teams that know who and what someone is worth in the game of basketball.

 

we should seriously try to send him off to the bobcats, they have a team full of college all-stars that can't play in the nba, it's like the ncaa set up that team to reward college players for playing great ncaa ball.

 

 

 

?? are you serious

 

I'll get a team together that is a mix of abilities, strengths and weakness. All would have a high Basketball IQ.

 

inside game and outside game,

those that can jump high and those who cannot,

tall and not as tall,

quick and not as quick,

those who can shoot outside and those who shoot inside

 

I'll let you get the team that can only run fast and jump high and lets see who wins.

 

Running fast doesn't mean a lot if you can't handle the ball and Jumping isn't the complete package if you can't shoot. There is a balance on a team.

 

I hope you will be eating your words about JJ down the road. But no matter who is right about JJ at least wait for him to play in several games during the regular season before throwing him under the bus. The guy obvious worked hard on his weakness during the off season. Something his critics said he needed to do. Well he did it and people are still complaining. Ya got to love human nature.

[TheRevTy 6]

Notice who hasn't played tonight for the Grizzlies?

 

Paging Mr. Crittenton. Javaris Crittenton, please pick up a white courtesy phone. Otis Smith is on the line. Wants to know what size jersey you wear. Paging Mr. Crittenton.