jmmagicfan

The first line is Biyambo over 77 games this season with Charlotte. The second line is Dedmon over 31 games this year with the Magic. Considering that Biyambo has had three years in the league, and was starting most of the first two seasons, his development should have far out-paced Dedmon's, and yet it hasn't. The only number with a dramatic advantage is FG% at 61% this year, but his first two years he was under 47%. Also, BB hasn't been able to hit more than 54% from the free throw line his entire career to date.

I do get your point, and especially with all the truly great centers, it is difficult. There is always going to be some overlap, but part of how I look at it is, were they the hands-down best for 3-4 years in their prime, and were they in the discussion for best for 8-10 years. Chamberlain, Russell, Kareem, Ewing, Hakeem, Shaq all qualify under that criteria (even though Ewing never won a title). I am on the fence with calling Moses Malone or David Robinson a "superstar". Again, huge fan of Robert Parrish and Bill Walton, but neither of them qualifies for me either, despite each winning rings with multiple teams.

And I would disagree at least on a couple of them. McGrady was brilliant for 3-4 years, and might have made that leap had his body not given out early. I was never a fan of Iverson's brand of basketball, and his documented disdain of "practice", while humorous, tarnished his star. I just never had the feeling that he 1) had a work-ethic we normally demand of our "superstars" or 2) made his teammates better. I have been a life-long Laker-Hater, so I call Magic, Wilt, Kareem, and Jerry West superstars in spite of that. Kobe is tough for me; his abilities, work-ethic, and results certainly are worthy of the term "superstar" and he has been the standard his era of SG are all held up to, after Michael left the game; but he seems to have had some personal and team-mate conflicts. Are the personal, and off-court issues enough to make me hold back on calling him a "superstar"? Not being the best player on his own team for a third to half his career works against him as well. No, I would still have to classify Kobe as a superstar, but it is closer than you think.

I don't think we have had one PG dominate an era like they did. Some would argue that the best PG in an era of really good ones should be classified as a "superstar", but when you can have a healthy debate about who was better at a position during the same era, to me it may make them all eligible for star status, but calls into question the "super" part. Can you honestly say Isiah was hands-down better then John Stockton, Gary Payton, Mark Price, and the rest of that generation's PG? Now throw Magic into the same discussion. How many people will argue that Magic wasn't better? There is the difference between star and superstar, in my opinion.

Then we don't really disagree on his level that much, I just am pretty tight with the word superstar. To me, among other things you have to be the star at your position for your era. The fact that there are other PG in his own era that you can argue were as good or better kind of negates the "super" tag for me. Magic was "the" PG of his era, Bird was "the" SF, Jordan was "the" SG, et cetera.

I don't consider Thomas or Drexler as one of the top 3 at their position all-time, that isn't to say they weren't very good or even great players, just not the greatest of the great. I grew up in New England, and was a huge fan of the 70's-80's Celtics, and I think the frontcourt of Bird/McHale/Parrish was one of the greatest frontcourts of all time, especially in '86 when you throw in Walton backing up both the PF/C; I consider McHale as one of the best PF of his generation, but I would still class him as a star, not a superstar. To me, you really have to stand head and shoulders above the rest for at least 4-5 years to be considered a superstar. I will be the first to admit that Isiah suffers a bit because I really hated those Detroit teams, but can't you name at least three PG you would put above him all time? The only position I might go more than 5 or 6 deep classifying players as superstars might be Center. Who would you replace with Isiah? Magic Johnson - 5 titles, re-defined the position Jerry West - The Logo Oscar Roberston - only player to average a triple double for a full season

Apparently you don't understand the difference between a star and a superstar. Magic Johnson - superstar, Isiah Thomas - star; Larry Bird - superstar, James Worthy - star; Michael Jordan - superstar, Clyde Drexler - star. I am not saying Isiah, or some of his teammates were not stars; in point of fact I think the Thomas/Dumars/Microwave Johnson was an amazing three-guard rotation, but being the leader of that team and rotation doesn't elevate one from the star/HOF into the superstar stratosphere. Glad we cleared that up!

In fact, I did, but he wasn't on the same level as Magic, Bird, Jordan, Wilkins, Ewing at that point in time. Those guys had very good teammates, many of them all-stars, but as they went, so went their teams. Thomas meant a lot to the Pistons, but not as much as the 5 I just mentioned. I am not saying they didn't have stars, but a lot of those guys made their names and fame as great teammates on the Pistons, not necessarily as "superstars" on their own. Isiah was definitely one of the best PG of his generation. I am not saying that our guys are as good, certainly they have done nothing to justify that. I am saying that a team built up of players who understand their roles and being led by a couple of 2nd tier all-stars have a better chance in the near future, because the new salary cap is much more restrictive and the odds of any team being able to put together a team with 2 or 3 top-tier, max-salary level guys is much harder now.

I think you are wrong about mediocrity, that team actually reminds me a bit of the Pistons back in '89 and '90, no real "superstars", but a lot of guys who can consistently give you 12-15 ppg, and a number of them capable of breaking out for 30 on any given night. As for third-stringer, I look at Payne as an asset in training. There are 5 young bigs on that list, with only Maxiel having a claim to veteran status. The internal competition for playing time, and the different skill sets should lead to development for them and to options for us. Plus, you never know when a player might get injured, especially young guys without much history. It is serious action down in the paint on most nights. Besides, there isn't a huge history of first year starters being picked with #12.

I don't think that is something we can call right now, ask again in January if they are all still here.

They seem to like McBob as well - isn't he starting at the 4 for them? No to Bismack! I actually think Dedmon is a comparable player, and a heck of a lot cheaper. MPG FG% FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG TOPG PPG 13.9 .611 .517 4.8 0.1 1.1 0.1 0.5 2.9 MPG FG% FT% RPG APG BLKPG STLPG TOPG PPG 12.6 .458 .656 4.1 0.2 0.7 0.2 0.6 3.1 I took out the Games Played which is the biggest giveaway. Can you see much difference? I don't. Sorry this is hard to read, it spaces and matches up when I edit, but not when it is posted?? I am taking some out to try and make it easier to read.

I kind of think this one might be too much the other direction, but how about this: Gerald Wallace, #6 and #17 from Boston for Arron Afflalo and #12 from Orlando (we could include Nicholson, if necessary) I don't think "Crash" is as good as Green or AA anymore, but still may be able to push Harris/Harkless to develop. Exum or Smart/Nelson Oladipo/Harkless/Moore(?) Harris/Wallace Vonleh or Randle/O'Quinn/Nicholson Vucevic/Dedmon Plus the BPA at #17

Not according to this article http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/celtics/post/_/id/4712688/report-card-kris-humphries?ex_cid=espnapi_public

And you don't think that the money saved($1.7M AA v. Green + $2.25M on rookie guarantees this year), plus one less guaranteed year of AA vs. Green is enough for Boston to trade down? You may be right, though it kind of depends on how they view Green going forward. Also, I forgot Humphries contract is expiring, so they aren't as pressed with the luxury tax as I first thought, so the savings isn't as significant.

I think so too, Gary Neal might make the numbers work.

Here is a name I haven't seen anyone put out there that might actually be a really good fit for us, Kris Humphries. He is coming off of a mediocre year with Boston, mainly due to the depth of their frontcourt/trying to give young players minutes to develop and playing more C, when he mostly played PF previously. Work ethic and team mentoring seem to be strong points, and with the last season, he should be available for significantly less than the $12M he made from the last year of his NJ contract. A strong rebounder and defensive player, he would fit really well next to Vucevic. If we could get him for a declining contract, 3 years/$24M (9/8/7) it wouldn't be too bad, and you could not bring back Maxiel saving 2.5M right there. Waive Lamb, renew Price & Moore and draft #4 and #12 #4 Exum/Smart #12 Hood/McDermott That gives you Exum or Smart/Nelson/Price Oladipo/Afflalo Harris/Harkless/McDermott or Hood Humphries/O'Quinn/Nicholson Vucevic/Dedmon

And why don't you think so? It gets them back under the tax line, doesn't add long-term salary(in fact cuts long-term), fills a hole, and lets them add depth. Also, their currently pretty well set at the PG and front-court. The best players at #6 play positions they don't need.

Orlando trades Afflalo, #12 and lottery-protected 2017 to Boston Boston trades Jeff Green, #6 and #17 to Orlando This works for Boston, as it helps get them back under the luxury tax line, gives them a starting SG/SF and a chance to pick up another SG/SF at #12. McDermott, Hood, Young, Stauskas; at least one or two should still be there at #12. Orlando can now pick up PG and PF at #4 and #6, and work on depth/bench at #17 Options: #4 Vonleh #6 Smart #17 BPA or #4 Exum #6 Randle #17 BPA

They haven't had much success playing Williams and Kanter together, so one option is to pick a PF and move one of them to the bench or trade one of them for some much-needed help at the SF. The other option being to trade the #5 for a SF if they can get one.

I think we keep Nelson/Afflalo this year, though maybe see if we can extend/rework Meer from his current 1 year @$8M out to a 3 year/$11M deal (5/3.5/2.5 declining). I am not sure if that is a possibility with the new contract rules. If so,then he mentor our younger guys, we free up cap space and he plays out his career/retires from the Magic. We release/trade Lamb and Nicholson for future picks if possible. Re-sign Moore as cheap as possible. Waive/release Price. #4 Exum #12 Payne Free Agents Luol Deng @ $10 - 11M per year, 4 year deal (Deng is what I would call a high-mid) Ed Davis @ $3.5M per year, 3 year deal (this might be a bit high, but he's a RFA, so Memphis might match less)(include Nicholson in a S&T?) Oladipo/Nelson Afflalo/Exum/Moore Deng/Harris/Harkless O'Quinn/Davis/Payne Vucevic/Dedmon/Maxiel I am listing Vic as the starting PG with Afflalo, since I would like to see us work Exum in, just like we did Vic last year; having Nelson as the veteran to step in if needed, Moore as fairly cheap insurance/backup. My primary rotation would be three guards - Exum, Oladipo and Afflalo. Maybe trading AA near the deadline depending on how Vic/Exum are managing. Bringing Deng in gives one more weapon to reduce the defensive concentrating on AA and Vucevic. He is a veteran who gives you a bit of everything and improves your wing defense. I think Vic/AA/Deng is a tough defense on the outside, helping to protect Vuc inside. Davis is a good shot-blocking, defensive minded PF, and Payne is a bit of a stretch-4. You keep Maxiel to continue to mentor the younger guys. Davis/Vuc/O'Quinn should all continue to improve, and hopefully Payne can add that extra dimension. You could possibly play him at the 5, Harris at the 4. It would open up the middle for your cutters. I think this gives you a well-rounded team that can continue to grow, can make the first or second round of the playoffs as a 5-6 seed, and with Afflalo's contract coming off either next summer or 2016, you still have some cap space to go after another prime FA. Or you might trade AA midseason

I put something similar to this in one of the other threads, but - how about this one: Magic trade Afflalo, Nicholson and #4 to Phoenix for: Eric Bledsoe, #14, #18, and #27 (I know Bledsoe is a RFA, so it would have to be some sort of sign & trade, maybe even split into two trades; Afflalo/Nicholson for Bledsoe, #4 for #14, #18, & #27) You draft #12 Nik Stauskas #14 Elfrid Payton #18 Adrien Payne #27 Cleanthony Early Waive Lamb, don't guarantee Price, re-sign Moore cheap; this gives you Bledsoe/Payton/Nelson Oladipo/Stauskas/Moore Harris/Harkless/Early O'Quinn/Payne/Maxiel Vucevic/Dedmon

I think with our current players and 2 rookies we should at least contend for the playoffs this year, hopefully squeak in and probably lose in the first round. I would hope that we can build/contend in 2-3 more years. As always, some of it comes down to luck/health, but barring that I really think we need to be serious contenders no later than the 2016-17 season, the 4th season from now. Unless we have an injury to a major player (a la Rose in Chicago), I don't think we should expect less. Really, we are already 2 years into the rebuild process and haven't seen a lot of success yet. I expect some pretty good jumps in win totals this year and next. If we can't get it done in that time frame, then we might need to go in a different direction. Having said all that, I do expect that we can get it done. I think with this draft we will have all the "young core" in place, and will just need the right veteran FA's to bring it together. I actually think a couple of mid-level FA this summer could put us into position for at least the 2nd round.

It seems like a pretty thin hope to actually put another two years of planning in on.

I am pretty sure they are capped out, so the only way they can "replace" him is to either re-sign him or sign & trade him. They either have to re-sign him, or start a fairly major overhaul on the fly; and we all know that doesn't usually work out too well.

I definitely get why we would be interested in KD, just not sure what makes you think we can steal him from OKC. He seems pretty settled in there, and they continue to be one of the top 4 teams in the league. If they significantly decline, or start to Otis the team, then maybe; but so far they seem pretty well run, and they can offer him more years/money than anyone else. I won't say there is no chance because it is a couple years away, but I think it is between slim and none, and Slim is looking for the exit.